TOPIC: HOLIDAYS ABROAD

HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #66999

Hi

My 5 year old daughter has been living with me for almost 3 years now ... the excuse for a mother buggered off back to Thailand then and 9 months ago got pregnant with another man and came back to England earlier on this year, and has been seeing our child every fortnight for the last 8 months when she isn't on holiday herself.

Anyway a cheap flight to Thailand over Xmas came up which i made a quick decision to buy as my kids asking a lot of questions about Thailand and after the last 4 years i just need a break

I then tell the mother this thinking her parents could see her when i'm over there, but i get the usual silent treatment, then after i drove from 200 miles to drop my daughter off with her for a couple of nights at my expense the evil witch then tells me she will discuss whether i can take her at a later date.

So i email this failed human aksing for a final decision and yet again she ignores me as she knows it winds me up.

Now this wretched thing has not contributed 1 penny to her childs upkeep and has caused nothing but problems for 3 years and especially since she came back, too add the only reason she is back in England is because some new fool got her pregnant ..... so i am wondering if i just take my child away over Xmas could she report me and get me arrested on my return for child abduction?

Reasoning with her is impossible as she just ignores me and is quite happy to spoil my daughters fun and happiness to get at me.

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Last Edit: by simonses.

HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67009

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Hi there

Strictly speaking if a parent wishes to take a child abroad he/she will need the permission of all parties that have Parental Responsibility for the child. Many parents (mainly mothers)flout this and just take the child abroad without getting permission first, with the father only finding out just as they are leaving, or after they've gone.

As she knows about your plans, if she were to contact the Customs /passport office and tell them she refuses permission, this could cause you problems at the airport and they may not allow you to leave.

You can however apply to the court for a Specific Issue Order and I'm pretty sure that the court would grant you leave to take your child abroad. Before you can apply to the court you must attend mediation, if this fails or she refuses to attend the mediator will sign off the appropriate form to enable you to apply to court for an order.

Perhaps before you embark on this you could try writing to her formally and requesting that she gives you permission and puts it in writing, tell her that you have taken legal advice and you can apply to the court for an order, this would mean that she would have to attend at the court in your area, which would incur travel costs and solicitors fees, if she required legal representation.

Alternatively you could get a solicitor to write to her.

Best of luck
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HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67060

As the child has been living with you for 3 year I am guessing you are the primary carer.
Technically speaking the mother has not objected - both parties may have PR - so you can take your child away on holiday for up to 30 days.

The courts would seriously take a dim view if cm starting objecting when a holiday is in the child's best interest.

As mojo says, let customs and passport office know of your plans - outbound and inbound tickets.
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HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67063

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...I'm sorry but that's not right. Regardless of where the children live, any person with Parental Responsibility does have to give permission for a child to be taken abroad.

If residency of a child has been decided by a court and written into a Child Arrangements Order, then that resident parent can take the child out of the country for a month without permission from the other parent.

As the OP hasn't mentioned that he went to court for residency of his child, I ssume that he doesn't have an order in place, if he does that's all good and he can go on holiday to Thailand without any worries.

Here's a link to the government guidelines about this for clarification.

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

I didn't actually say that you should contact the customs and passport office, but if the mother does and refuses permission they are likely to stop you from leaving without her permission, or a court order saying that you can.

Best of luck with it, I would try the letter first, if she thinks she will have to go to court then she may back down.
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Last Edit: by Mojo.

HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67074

Thanks, i told my daughter (i know i shouldnt but its stressful having someone play a game with ones life) that i am not sure if we can go and she has said she will ask her mother. A pathetic situation when a 5 year kid has to act in her interests.

I haven't been to mediation or got any orders in place ... can mediation enable me to have custody or whatever its called these days ... as i was under the impression it was just a signed agreement between the 2 of us that could be scrapped at any given moment.

She has just had a baby and i am sure she will use her ready made family as a weapon to gain custody.

Despite the fact i have done everything for 3 years whilst he mothers got knocked up with no thought for her own daughter, I am paranoid the feminist courts will have a natural bias towards giving custody to her mother.

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HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67080

Mojo wrote: ...I'm sorry but that's not right. Regardless of where the children live, any person with Parental Responsibility does have to give permission for a child to be taken abroad.

If residency of a child has been decided by a court and written into a Child Arrangements Order, then that resident parent can take the child out of the country for a month without permission from the other parent.

I didn't actually say that you should contact the customs and passport office, but if the mother does and refuses permission they are likely to stop you from leaving without her permission, or a court order saying that you can.


Not sure what I have said is incorrect -

Both parties may have PR - so you can take your child away on holiday for up to 30 days.
The courts would seriously take a dim view if cm starting objecting when a holiday is in the child's best interest.

If cm has not objected or raised concerns I would go ahead with booking the holiday and take the child away.
If cm has concerns let her raise it at the court - save your time and money.

At the same time I would notify the passport office of your intention to travel with your child abroad - the letter can be used at court if the need arises.

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HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67081

simonses wrote: Thanks, i told my daughter (i know i shouldnt but its stressful having someone play a game with ones life) that i am not sure if we can go and she has said she will ask her mother. A pathetic situation when a 5 year kid has to act in her interests.

I haven't been to mediation or got any orders in place ... can mediation enable me to have custody or whatever its called these days ... as i was under the impression it was just a signed agreement between the 2 of us that could be scrapped at any given moment.

She has just had a baby and i am sure she will use her ready made family as a weapon to gain custody.

Despite the fact i have done everything for 3 years whilst he mothers got knocked up with no thought for her own daughter, I am paranoid the feminist courts will have a natural bias towards giving custody to her mother.


To clarify - from my experience and those that I have worked with - you can take your daughter away on holiday as you have PR and factually been the main carer in your daughter's life.

If she objects then the only way she can stop you is by going to court - as I said before - let her try to convince a judge that a holiday with your daughter is not in the best.

Let her spend time and money going to court - save yours on your daughter and that planned holiday.

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HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67083

Hi There,

I'm pretty sure that having PR doesn't allow you to take your child out of the country without the other parents permision, only a parent with a residency order is able to take the child out of the country for up too 30 days without permision.

I think from what you have said in your posts that it would be best to invite your ex to mediation, if she won't attend then you can get your form to go too court, I would then apply to the court for residency too start with and ask that contact be set up with your ex also to provide stability for your daughter.

GTTS
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HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67092

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Loving_Dad.....I've copied and pasted this from the link I gave above, which is from a GOV.UK website. As you will see, having PR doesn't automatically entitle a parent to take a child abroad without the permission of the other parent, or other parties with PR.

GOV.UK
Get permission to take a child abroad

You must get the permission of someone with parental responsibility for a child or from a court before taking the child abroad.

Taking a child abroad without permission is child abduction.

You automatically have parental responsibility if you’re the child’s mother, but you still need the permission of anyone else with parental responsibility before you take the child abroad.

You can take a child abroad for 28 days without the permission of anyone else with parental responsibility for the child if you have a child arrangements order.

Get permission from someone with parental responsibility
A letter from the person with parental responsibility for the child is usually enough to show you’ve got permission to take them abroad. You might be asked for the letter at a UK or foreign border, or if there’s a dispute about taking a child abroad. The letter should include the other person’s contact details and details about the trip.

It also helps if you’ve:

evidence of your relationship with the child, eg a birth or adoption certificate
a divorce or marriage certificate, if you are a single parent but your family name is different from the child’s

Get permission from a court
You’ll need to apply to a court for permission to take a child abroad if you haven’t got permission from the other people with parental responsibility.

You must give details of the trip, eg the date of departure, when and how you’re returning, and contact details of people with parental responsibility staying in the UK.

You must give more information if you’re taking the child abroad for a longer trip, eg what education the child will get while they’re abroad.

Last updated: 24 February 2015

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HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67094

Thanks GTTS & Mojo,

Holidays are always a very grey area and difficult one to interpret (in courts) even if guidelines are clear and a very emotive subject.

Simon's issue is that the cm has not commented or objected to the holiday - this is where things are grey and I would argue that no comment means no objection.
He can (arguably) use the pr defence as he has notified cm of holiday plans and must supply return air tickets.

The only time I forsee him getting the holiday blocked is if a PSO is applied for and granted by cm (costing her money).

I (personally) would not advise him to spent time and money getting SIO in this example as he is the primary carer and has the passports and has notified cm of holidays plans.

Typically family court judges do not prevent family holidays (unless risk of abduction or high risk state reasons).

GTTS I agree Simon should apply for residency asap.

Good luck to whatever process is taken...I personally hope the daughter does not miss out

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Last Edit: by Loving_Dad.

HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67100

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I hate to keep repeating myself but I think it's very important always to endeavour to give the correct information, it really isn't a grey area here and I would hate any member to miss out because they were misled by us.

Loving_Dad wrote: Thanks GTTS & Mojo,

Holidays are always a very grey area and difficult one to interpret (in courts) even if guidelines are clear and a very emotive subject.

......Unfortunately this isn't a grey area and the rules are very clear, all parties with PR must give their permission before a child can be removed from the jurisdiction, unless the resident parent has a Child Arrangements Order, in this case the OP doesn't have one and has never been to court over residency.

Simon's issue is that the cm has not commented or objected to the holiday - this is where things are grey and I would argue that no comment means no objection.
He can (arguably) use the pr defence as he has notified cm of holiday plans and must supply return air tickets.

.......Simons issue is that he has asked the mother and she is ignoring him! She now knows he has a holiday booked to take the child to Thailand for Christmas. She can contact Customs/passport office and tell them she hasn't given permission, if she did that Simon and his child would be stopped and prevented from leaving. Also even if the mother didn't inform the authorities, if Passport control stopped him and he could not provide written permission from the other parent or a copy of the court order, again he could be preventing from leaving.

The only time I forsee him getting the holiday blocked is if a PSO is applied for and granted by cm (costing her money).

I (personally) would not advise him to spent time and money getting SIO in this example as he is the primary carer and has the passports and has notified cm of holidays plans.

......He needs written permission from her. He can write to her formally, try mediation, or as a last resort, apply to court.

Typically family court judges do not prevent family holidays (unless risk of abduction or high risk state reasons).

......I agree, if it got to court the judge is highly unlikely to stop the holiday from going ahead.

GTTS I agree Simon should apply for residency asap.

......Totally agree :)

Good luck to whatever process is taken...I personally hope the daughter does not miss out

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Last Edit: by Mojo.

HOLIDAYS ABROAD 4 years 2 months ago #67101

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Hi Simon

Mediation is only the first step in the process and you are right, anything agreed there is not legally binding. However mediation is now mandatory before court action can be taken.

In my opinion it's better to be the one to start the process, especially as your daughter has already been living with you for the last three years.

Whilst it does seem that there is gender bias in the family courts, the child's best interests are paramount and they are highly unlikely to transfer residence after such a long time. As it stands at the moment, the mother could refuse to give her back after a contact visit and then you would have a fight to get her back.

If you are concerned that she is planning to apply for custody then it's a situation that is going to be addressed one way or the other, better that you are the one making the first move as you will feel more in control of the situation.

Good luck

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