[Solved] Advice Needed - sorry long

Hi kcollins,

Hope we can be of help.

Firstly i would agree that you are in many respects correct.

From a Court point of view, it is mostly viewed as positive to have both "natural" parents in their lives. Given the background you have mentioned it may well be worth trying to represent yourselves in Court and go from the stance that, in the outset Contact should be in a Contact Centre for so many hours per week.

From the point of view of the Courts, they will expect something to be given, and its important to remember that any stance of refusing completely, will not go down too well.

Should she petition the Courts, you will have a Resolution Hearing, given your circumstances, you can perhaps recommend that the situation is [WHAT YOU'VE INCLUDED IN YOUR POST BOTH PAST AND PRESENT] and while you may/may not be supportive of Contact, you would like a Finding of Fact with regards to the previous case/instances to be brought up at the next Court date. The Court, under CAFCASS guidance should comply with this...

I honestly think that this is a sufficient amount for you to know for now, to save information overload. So advice, have agreements about Contact being supervised and recommend she get in touch with local centres to look into arranging this... proceed via Court.

I agree with yoji on this. You can't apply for the contact order, only she can do this (thanks to CCLC for correcting me on this in another thread). I would have a word with the local contact centre and see what their conditions are - it's possible that they can only help if the case is referred to them by the court, but they'll tell you for certain, and it's worth getting to know them anyway. In the circumstances, I would say that you want supervised contact for as long as possible, on the basis that you cannot trust your ex to keep her partner away from the children.

A couple more points.
Firstly, I would say that it would be worth making sure that social services are aware that your ex has a new baby and the potential danger the baby is in - although you have no responsibility for the baby, if something were to happen, you really wouldn't want to think you could have done something.
Secondly, the courts have said that your partner and his ex will arrange contact (which is a bit of a vague instruction), and yoji has correctly said that the courts do generally take the opinion that it is healthy for both parents to maintain contact. However, this doesn't mean that direct contact is always desirable, indirect contact is still contact, and sometimes, for the health and welfare of children, that level of contact is all that is needed, so I would say that indirect contact is your starting point should she want to start contact.

Finally, have a read of yoji's guide to representing yourself - your partner won't even have to pay the £200 fee as it will be his ex who is starting the proceedings.

Thank you for the replys.

My partner and I discussed this at length and have decided to let their mum see the children. We really dont want to stop all contact because although shes not the best mum in the world she is still there mum. She is coming to pick them up tomorrow and take them for 3 hours to a friends. We are trusting her not to let her partner see them and that she doesnt let us down. It is however looking like only the eldest (7 years old) who actually wants to see her. The 5 and 4 year old say they want to stay with us this weekend and the 2 year all got all confused when the 7 year old asked him if he wanted to see Mummy, he looked at me all confused as he thinks im his mum as I have been for the last year.

If she lets the children down, or hurts them in any way then we will stop contact and she will have to go to court.

However after reading your post actd I didnt realise that contact could be indirect, maybe we ought to have said contact them by phone for a while before seeing them. Since she decided she wanted to see them and organising a time to pick them up, she still hasnt rang and spoke to them on the telephone, she just expecting to show up tomorrow after nearly 6 months of no contact and to take them away. 🙁

The more I think about it the more I hate this whole situation.

Hi

I hate to make this worse, but to be honest I wouldn't trust her not to take your children to see her partner. Unfortunately abusers often have a lot of control, and people who are under their influence will say what is necessary to get what they want. Obviously that is a simplification, but it's something you need to be aware of. Do you know the friend? If so, you could change the arrangements so you drop the children off directly at the friends and contact stays there.

I understand how you hate the situation, I really do, but keeping the children safe is the best reward you can have.

Keep us posted on how it goes.

Update: We decided that she couldnt see the children this past weekend as she still had not spoke to them on the phone and to be honest only the eldest actually wanted to see her. Their dad rang their mum to explain the situation and suggest she spoke to them on the phone for the next few weeks to get to know them better.

It turns out she was going to cancel anyway due to not having any money to get on the bus and pick them up. (we have only had 1 car this past 3 weeks and I work every saturday so was unable to drop them off)

She rang and spoke to them on saturday for a short while, the children were quite excited to speak to her (which does make me feel bad when im thinking I dont want her to see them) She does want to see them this coming Saturday, so we will have to wait and see if she continues with phone calls and has any money to come and pick them up.

My other worry is if she hasnt got even a basic bus fair how is she going to feed them, is she expecting the friend she is visiting to feed them, or are we to provide a lunch. It just seems to bring up more questions and more worries as we go along.

Hi

I'm slightly relieved that contact didn't happen, it gives a bit of breathing space to sort things out a bit. First, don't feel bad - your aim isn't to try to prevent contact, you are trying to keep the children safe, and that's the best reason for what you are doing. It's a matter of sensible precautions to make sure that this continues. Do you know anything about the friend?

Update: Sorry not updated sooner, 5 children, working and doing a degree keeps me busy.

She phoned them twice, we asked her if she wanted to see them this past Wednesday as it was Half Term. She said yes, we asked that she call them every other day until contact. Should have been 3 more calls, she didnt call but we got a text saying she had no money. We suggested she get the bus here and take them to a park near us for a couple of hours (we live 5 miles from her). Still nothing was organised, we text her Tuesday night to say she couldnt see them as she did not call.

We receive a text from her to say she is taking us to court to get contact so that its down on paper and we know where we stand. We reply back to say fair enough we will be asking for a contact centre.

So thats where we are now, waiting for a letter from her solicitor. Probably going to cost us hundreds more and she gets it free though legal aid as she doesnt work. She doesnt realise or care that the thousands we have already spent on solicitors is actually taking the money away fromm her kids.

In reply to your question, we dont know the friend or where they live.

Have you read yoji's guide to representing yourself? It may be something worth considering as she has nothing to lose, and everything to gain by creating problems and bumping up your costs - if you represent yourself, then it will cost you nothing but time, and we can assist on here, and if you are representing yourself, we can call on the services of the legal experts at the CCLC.

My own opinion (and I stress that) is that the position you are in now is best for the children. I think supervised contact at a contact centre is by far the best solution for the foreseeable future. In addition (and make sure you keep every bit of correspondence, transcribe texts and telephone conversations etc) she is proving to be totally unreliable and I think you should stress this point in court - children need routine and reliability. I would be inclined to press for supervised contact once per month to begin with, and if she can keep to this, then it can be slowly increased - I would say that unsupervised contact is a long, long way down the line. One other advantage of supervised contact centre is that they keep records of attendance etc, so this can be used in court later on if necessary.

Thanks actd - your advice has been very helpful.

A little update, she has not contacted the children at all since saying she was going to take us to court. She telephone last night however to accuse us of contacting social services and saying her child was in danger (we did not do this, we would much rather have no contact from her what so ever so why would be cause trouble) anyway her partner came on the telephone called us all the names under the sun and threatend to come and stab me with a screwdriver, put our windows through (which they have done before) and also firebomb our house. (firebomb the house where her children live, just shows she doesnt care)

In the middle of the threats she also mentioned that she had seen her solicitor and we would be receiving a letter regarding mediation. They have done mediation before, but only one session as everything was agreed. The children would be with us and she would have contact, which then went to court and was finalised.

My questions are: if we go to mediation are we going to have to pay for this (think previously it was about £80 a session) The mother would get legal aid so would all costs fall to us? Or if she is initiating it would it be upto her legal aid to pay it.

If it got to court and my partner represented himself (which he will have to as we just havent got the money) would I be able to go in as his Mckenzie friend? I wouldnt say anything but I think having me there would help him remember things and stand his ground a bit more.

I really thought all the threats and abuse was over, we had to move house last time the windows got put through as I just couldnt relax or sleep. Now we have a new baby and the other 4 living with us I really dont want the worry. 🙁

Just to add we didnt contact the police as we have done that before and it just gets logged and they go round and tell them to leave us alone but it just makes the situation worse.

I would sort out a way of recording phone calls, and when the ex rings, state immediately that the call is being recorded (you want that bit on the recording as well) - it may may her (and her partner) think twice about what they are saying, which will be much more pleasant for you, but if not, then you have evidence that can then be used in court - to be honest, if you are getting these sort of threats, I would be pushing the police to take more action than just a quiet word - those threats over the phone very clearly constitute assault.

As I understand it, you can ask for a Mackenzies friend and the other side can agree, in which case there shouldn't be a problem, or they can disagree, in which case I think the court decides (can anyone confirm or correct this?)

It's probably an obvious point, in which case I apologise, but having all of your notes thoroughly organised in a file, with sections as relevant, and post-it notes on anything that you think you need to lay your hands on quickly, with a summary of the points you wish to raise, counter arguments for anything the ex may raise will help you enormously, and the preparation will give you much more confidence about your case.

Just another little update.

She called again to apologise for accusing us of contacting social services, she found out who it was and said it would be dealt with. (not sure what she means by that, but at least we are off the hook)

Both times she called, one to abuse and the other to apologise she not once asked how the kids were or to speak to them. I really dont think she is that interested in seeing the kids or speaking to them, she just wants to cost us money by going through court. She knows were getting married next year so probably thinks if we are having to spend all our money on solicitors fees then we wont be able to afford a wedding.

We are still waiting for a letter from her solicitor in regard to mediation. ( my worry is that they have sent it to the wrong address so it looks like we are being obstructive)

We received a letter from the mums solicitor, looks like she has a new solicitor (probably because the last one hated her and knew she was in the wrong)

Anyway the letter stated that we were denying contact and that they recommended both parties went to mediation, they said they had instructed their mediation company/service (cant remember which) to contact us with a date a time.

We are more than willing to go to mediation, however not if we have to pay for it. She gets legal aid, we dont and when we went before they tried to charge us around £90 for a session. Why should we have to pay for that when she is the one instigating this.

We have never said she cannot see the children, all we stated was that she must contact them over the telephone for a period of time to build up a relationship with them before she could see them. She hasnt seen them now for 7 months, how can she expect to turn up on the doorstep and take them away, the youngest wouldnt even know who she was.

Anyway we sent a response to her solicitor via email so that we could have it written down. We advised that we had not denied contact and that all we wanted was telephone contact before direct contact went ahead. We also stated that we wouldnt be getting any legal advice and asked them to reply via the email.

Have we done the right thing?

The last time she telephoned the children was 29th May. Its the eldests Birthday today and were wondering if shes even going to ring and say Happy Birthday. She really doesnt want to see the children, she is only doing it to try and cost us more money through court as she knows were getting married next year.

I really wish we could just attend court, show all our evidence of the abuse, threats, and that she isnt really interested in the children and for them to say no contact at all and it be over with, but doubt that will ever happen. 🙁

I'll ask the CCLC to comment on this.

My thoughts are:
1. No, I wouldn't be happy about having to pay for mediation either - it may be possible to do it on her legal aid, but if not hopefully the CCLC will comment on whether you could legitimately refuse mediation on the basis that you cannot afford it, are not eligible for legal aid, and going to mediation and paying would make supporting the children - I think you are able to do this (if I recall correctly from one of yoji's posts in the past)
2. I think your suggestions of contact are more than reasonable, at least initially. I would be looking at a strict timetable of each level of contact before moving onto the next - for instance, telephone contact twice a week for two months before moving on to supervised contact (if any are missed, then the starting date is started again) and then six months of supervised contact twice per month before moving on to supervised contact with a short period away from the contact centre. Again, if any are missed, the six months starts again - the purpose of this is to prove that she can maintain a proper level of contact before moving on to the next step. If the mother objects to this resetting of the clock if any are missed, then you (and the court) have to ask why she is objecting - it implies that she thinks she won't be able to maintain regular contact.

Dear K Collin,

Thank you for your enquiry.

Please note that as you are the Resident Parent (i.e. having day to day care for the children) you can decide on how much contact the mother has with the children.

From what you have said in your enquiry, it seems that you have taken the necessary steps.

With regards to the mediation, unfortunately we cannot advise on whether or not you should pay half of the

mediation session if you and the mother decide to go for mediation as this would be giving our personal opinion. This will be a decision for you both to make. However, the advantage of mediation is that the courts will generally take this into account as applying to court for a contact order should be the last resort. The Courts will want to see all the attempts both parties have made before using the Court route.

If the mother is not happy with the amount of contact she is getting with the children, she can apply for a Contact Order which is her legal right. How much contact she will receive will be up to the courts to decide as each application for a contact order is dependent on its own merits. The Courts will look at the welfare checklist under s.(1)(3) Children Act 1989 when deciding on whether or not to grant a contact order. The factors include:

a) The ascertainable wishes and feelings of the child concerned (considered in light of his age and understanding); This is not relevant due to the child’s age.
b) His physical, emotional and / or educational needs;
c) The likely effect on him of any change in his circumstances;
d) His age, [censored], background and any characteristics of his, which the court considers relevant;
e) Any harm which he has suffered or is at risk of suffering;
f) How capable each of his parents and any other person in relation to whom the court considers the question to be relevant, is of meeting his needs;
g) The range of powers available to the court under the Children Act 1989 in the proceedings in question.

If you have any further questions please contact us via our webchat facility. The link to our webchat is http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/index.php?page=web_chat.

Yours sincerely,

Coram Children’s Legal Centre.