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Child Arrangement Order - Legal advice needed!

 
(@mikeyc)
Active Member Registered

I have 3 boys, 3, 4 & 10. This is regarding the 2 younger boys and their mum. Eldest is from a relationship prior. We have a court order in place that states I have them every other weekend and for holidays, the order states: Any such further contact as may be agreed between the parties in writing.

We agreed I'd have the boys for 2 weeks in August (w/c 2nd & 23rd Aug). I’d had them since 31st July. That wasn’t my weekend, but my ex relinquished her weekend to me (didn’t want to swap), so she could go to a music festival. I have also had the boys for 6 out of 7 weekends for her - she hasn’t wanted to swap any of her weekends to gain time back, she’s given up every single one of those weekends to go drinking or go on dates. The caveat to me having them week commencing 2nd August, was that I MUST take them to nursery on Thursday and Friday because she didn’t want them to miss out on nursery. She would not have let me have them for the week unless I agreed to this.

On Tuesday, my youngest fell ill and was being sick. I called the nursery to advise I wouldn’t be taking them in this week. Also, the nursery states a child cannot return until 48 hours since they were last sick. Also, the nursery reported it has a sickness bug going round this week.

When I contacted my ex to let her know about him being ill and that I'd told the nursery, she went ballistic. She told me I’m “never” to contact the nursery again as it’s nothing to do with me. Then said we had an agreement and that’s the end of it, didn't believe he was sick. She said “You WILL take them to nursery and that’s the end of it”. I refused. She then said she will come and collect them Tuesday night (this was now Tuesday afternoon) and that I wouldn’t have them the rest of the week. Then she changed her mind and said she won’t collect Tuesday night (as she was going to a wedding on Weds and wanted to get drunk), and said she was collecting Thursday morning to take them to nursery. Initially I agreed as I knew she couldn't take them nursery, so didn't think she'd collect as she had work that day. I messaged back and refused and said that she can come but we won’t be home. I’d then made plans to take the boys out for breakfast.

She turned up on Thursday, I wasn’t there. She called the police. Police called me and asked for my version of events. They said there’s no law being broken, this is a civil issue and they were satisfied I acted in the boys best interests. Thursday night at 10.30pm, boys all fast asleep. Then I hear loud banging on my kitchen window, then loud banging at my back door. With swearing and screaming. I opened the window and she was outside, with 2 friends. She started screaming and shouting to hand me back the kids. She was hysterical and looked to be under the influence (drugs maybe, I know she does coke on nights out). Then attempted to break into my flat. Managed to stop her and I called the police. During this time, the boys woke and they were terrified. Crying, shaking in fear, it took me an age to pacify them and get them back to sleep. I don’t know even what underlying impact that kind of trauma will have on them.

Police turned up. Two women officers. They had no interest in her attempted break in. Put it this way, if roles were reversed and I turned up to hers with 2 mates and attempted to break in, what then? I guarantee I’d have been arrested. They asked if I’d be willing to let her have the boys to keep the peace. But they were both in my face and said it in such a way that insinuated “this is what you WILL do”. I felt under duress, especially knowing the mob were outside. So again, I agreed that she could collect from my parents house at 10.30am Friday morning (as they were looking after the kids in the morning whilst I went dentist).

After they left, I couldn’t live with that decision, so I called 101. I complained that I felt under pressure. I also feared that the state she was in, she needed to calm down for a few days too (I do/have feared for her mental well being previously). But also, no rational person tries to break in somewhere at near 11pm, to forcefully remove their children in their sleep, so of course I had concerns. The police advised me to message her and say I’m withdrawing consent for her to collect on Friday morning and said if she does arrive, I can call the police again.

Friday morning at 10.45am, she arrived. Police were called. This time, 2 male officers. They were looking at everything very black and white. I went to tell him the story and he shut me down saying he knows the history and that I don’t need to tell him anything, not even giving me an opportunity to talk. Then went out to speak to the ex, came back and asked why I haven’t mentioned x,y and z and said I was withholding information. What a joke. Then said he looked at the bodycam footage from Thursday night which showed I agreed she can collect. Then saw the text I sent the ex saying I agreed she can collect Thursday morning. He said that’s it, you agreed, end of. No context, nothing. Wasn’t interested in anything I had to say. Dismissed what his colleagues advised me on the Thursday night 101 call. He said he’s then making the decision to take the children away because there was no agreement specifically from her to say I could have the boys at my house Thursday and Friday. And that there’s no specific holiday dates on the court order, therefore she’s well within her right to collect whenever she wants.

I fought my corner but they said I had no choice but to hand them over. My boys burst into tears and again were shaking with fear. Mainly because of the policeman’s presence but partly because they get upset at going back to their mums after they’ve been with me. The officer then went back outside. He came back and said that, as a dad himself, that really killed him, seeing that. He asked if we can compromise and if I’d agree to keep the boys until Sunday 3pm and she collects. Now this weekend is my weekend anyway, so handing them back 4 hours early, I thought was fine, so I agreed to that.

Now, I’ve found out she’s spoken to the courts and filed a C79 enforcement order. She’s saying not only have I broken the order, but she has no faith I’ll allow her to collect on Sunday. She states in the order she hasn’t seen them since 31st July (not stating in the order that’s because she GAVE UP her weekend time with them and no mention of her attempting to BREAK IN to my house). She also states the court have told her to keep the boys once she has them, as she has no faith I won’t “break” the court order in the future. Looks to me like she’s going to try and stop me from having the boys?

I’ve contacted social services. I’m concerned about her mental state. The trauma inflicted on the boys just on Thursday night alone, seriously concerns them. I’ve had members of her family call me behind her back, advising they have concerns about her, because of how she explodes at the kids over stupid things. She has various different men over each night (she can do what she likes, but what if the boys woke, as they often do?). The boys personalities are definitely changing, they are both becoming shy and going inside themselves, when they both used to be loud, bubbly and confident. Also, she argued with my partner several times, my partner kept saying “not in front of the kids” but the ex says “I don’t care what they hear”, and continues to scream and swear, not attempting to even slightly shield them. What are they exposed to behind closed doors?

I've received a text from her, stating I can have the boys on 21st/22nd August, but I now cannot take them away on holiday on week commencing 23rd August. This is purely out of spite. The boys are so looking forward to going away with their elder brother. My question is this - can she stop me from having them still, if we have an agreement on text? I ask because the Police were adamant last week, that I couldn't keep the children as there was no specific written agreement from the ex saying I can have them Thursday and Friday... so on that basis, surely it works both ways?

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Topic starter Posted : 10/08/2021 11:57 am
(@Vik2001)
Reputable Member Registered

That sounds heavy what u got going on. Is this a private arrangement you got? If so sounds like you should record and note everything. 

Best way could be to get a official court order in place on what days kids are with who. Cafcass will get involved and it could get nasty if she hits you with lots of allegations. Sounds to me she on a mad one, so be prepared.

Try mediation and see if she can be reasoned with first. 

 

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Posted : 10/08/2021 12:44 pm

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(@mikeyc)
Active Member Registered

No, we have a court order in place, done the whole mediation thing... The court order was set in such a way as they assumed they were dealing with 2 reasonable adults... unfortunately, she's the polar opposite of that..

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 10/08/2021 12:55 pm
(@Vik2001)
Reputable Member Registered

Then I think go back to court explain your concerns but only with evidence and ask for extra days or a plan which will make handovers less complicated. Says she's breaking the order and not being fair on you and kids.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/08/2021 1:38 pm

(@mikeyc)
Active Member Registered

Yeah that's the long term plan. I guess I just wanted to know if i have any "right" to keep them for the week on Monday 23rd, as I have them the weekend before anyway, and she did agree the week previously, before changing her mind out of spite...

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 10/08/2021 1:58 pm
(@Daddyup)
Prominent Member Registered

Hi

I think unless you have a shared care order, keeping the kids may cause you no end of hassle for any future court applicayions/hearings as your ex will then be able to argue that you cannot be trusted, that you keeping the kids when not agreed has harmed them, she could potentially call the police on you which means when your police record is looked into you will be on the system as someone having been spoken to about child abduction potentially... We all know it doesn't work the same for mothers and fathers and therefore it is better to navigate the system to the best we can and reduce the number of potential hurdles etc..

Often there is no point calling the police and SS when you have concerns as too many agencies complicates matters and often just leads to reduced/delayed contact for fathers...

In your situation maybe it could be worthwhile taking a step back to let things calm down and take the heat out of the situation and either via mediation or any mutual friends/family try to discuss what has gone wrong (the why isn't important to avoid the blame game) and consider what you both want and what's best for the kids and how that can be achieved.

 

All the best. 

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Posted : 10/08/2021 2:33 pm

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(@mikeyc)
Active Member Registered

@Daddyup - this is the issue, we DO have a shared care order, but the wording around the additional holidays is ambiguous at best. It states I can have extra time as agreed. we agreed. Now shes revoking that because she's got the hump!

As for what's gone wrong... its a simple answer. Control. Me taking the decision to keep the kids of nursery, meant she lost control of the situation and it killed her. it's nothing to do with the children unfortunately. She's a controlling narcissist, of which emotionally abused me for years. Now i'm gone, she's weaponised the children and channelling her controlling nature through the children. This has been building, but the attempted break in was the straw that broke the camels back. The one and only way she can regain control, is to stop the children going on holiday. Not one person on this planet can say that's a good idea and in the best interests of the children.

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 10/08/2021 3:00 pm
(@Daddyup)
Prominent Member Registered

Hi

What I meant by shared care was 50:50 across the board, from your original post I picked up you have the kids every other weekend and holidays etc. In the absence of 50:50 the mother therefore controls contact with you and has a lot more say. It shouldn't be like that but it's how the various agencies see it.

Once she withdraws consent your only option is to go back to court. As she is considered the primary carer, it's why when there was the dispute with the police the police decided to return the kids to her, you would then need to go to court to debate the finer points, as they say its a civil matter...

None of it is fair and we have all experienced it... 

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Posted : 10/08/2021 4:46 pm

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(@bill337)
Illustrious Member

Hi MikeyC,

that wording about additional agreements between both parties is not legally binding. it simply implies that both parents can make additional arrangements about kids, on top of the court order, because they expect parents to be flexible in future and they can't decide everything for parents.

so she can agree and disagree, just like you, and then you can decide that as these additional arrangements are not working, you just fall back to the court order and stick with arrangements mentioned in there. sounds like your better off just sticking to the order in black and white. if there is anything important you want to add, like having 1 or 2 week holidays with kids, then I'm afraid it seems you would have to return to court and ask those these arrangements to be put into the order.

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Posted : 10/08/2021 10:38 pm

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