[Solved] CSA stronger than a court order?

Hi Hunt,

I'm not sure if a court order is of less significance than the CSA - I can ask our legal experts at the Children's Legal Centre to have a look though they know child law they are not experts on the CSA. It might be an idea to call our other partners at Child Maintenance Options (who can give independent advice on all aspects of maintenance) a call - their number is 0800 988 0988 and they are open From 8 am to 8 pm Monday to Friday / From 9 am to 4 pm Saturday.

CLC will not look at this until Monday at the earliest and it could be the middle of next week before they are able to respond. If CMO are able to answer your question please pop back and let us all know the answer. I'm sure if any of the DadTalk community know the answer to your question they will also respond.

Gooner

Hi Hunt,

This is appalling, but unfortunately, as far as I am aware, the parent with care can apply to the CSA for maintenance, but I know the rules were under review when the CMEC came into being, so take Gooner's advice and check with the CMO.

I would query a few things though. Firstly, you seem to have got a very raw deal in your divorce - was there a particular reason for this? I don't know what the position is about going back to court to re-open the divorce case, normally a clean break is just that, but I'd say that your ex has breached the terms of the court order, so perhaps you could go back to court. I would say that you need to get specific legal advice from a divorce expert on this.

Secondly, while getting legal advice, I'd question whether 50% of the rental income from the property (ie your share) could be used in the calculation for maintenance, for instance, if the income is £400 per month, your share would be £200 and the CSA would want £40 of this for maintenance, so you are paying £160 over the CSA calculation, which could be counted towards the rest of the maintenance. Again, you need to ask a solicitor on this.

Finally, you said the CSA are after a third of your salary - for two children, the basic calculation says 20% of income (after pension deduction), and they can only go back to the date when they first contacted you, so arrears shouldn't go back further than this.

Sorry I can't be more specific, but hopefully I have given you some ideas to ask if you seek advice from a divorce lawyer.

Thanks for the advice.

Seeing a lawyer is an expensive option and one I could barely afford. I dont qualify for Legal Aid? Its a very odd system in this country. In other countries Mum could have seen jail time for what has happened with the lack of visitation.
I did get a raw deal with the court order. I really thought giving her everything would go a long way in seeing my girls. I was looking for a clean start and at the very least I knew the girls would have a decent place to live and grow up. But insanity came callign and 5 years later it looks like we will be going back to court? Which I want to avoid.
My ex must know what she is doing. Women learn to use the system very quickly.

I am in contact with the CSA over payments. It looks like, and they are not very good about giving a written reason for their decisions, I have a set maintainance payment mixed in with a month payment for back charges that are about a 3rd of my salary. After the first year it goes down to less.
The CSA told me, when I sent them the Court Order, that it would make a big difference to case. But after speaking to the ex teh CSA have decided to push forward aggressively to gain more funds from me.

This cant be right. A Judge in the Queens Court has no power over the CSA?
What a nightmare.

I just visited the CSA site and entered a few numbers.
They came out very different than the numbers the gentleman from the CSA gave me over the phone.

How do i know if my ex is on benifits? This question changes the figure dramaticly.

Thanks again.

Hi Hunt,

You really do need legal advice over the divorce settlement - some lawyers may give a free 30 minute consultation before they take on a case, so you could try getting one of these to see if it is possible, and worthwhile, re-opening the divorce case to get the settlement renegotiated.

Unfortunately, you are correct that the legal system is expensive, but if a solicitor says that you are able to re-open the case on the basis of your ex breaking the court agreement, then you could pay the solicitor to send her a letter to say that you are looking at doing this. If she calls your bluff, at that point you could go ahead with a court case (which would be expensive, but if the solicitor thinks you have a good case, then may be worth it) or you could back down, in which case you are no worse off except for the cost of the letter.

With regards to the maintenance that the CSA are after, you need to be paying at least the normal monthly amount as the CSA do get agressive (though it takes them a long time) over non-payment (I am the Parent with care, so have been at the other end of the system), and if you don't pay, the first step will be an attachment order, where they get the money deducted from your salary before you even see it, but you should be able to negotatiate with them over the payment of arrears - they don't charge interest, so there's no penalty in spreading it out over a couple of years.

As for your ex being on benefits, it's difficult to find this out - you could ask the CSA if they can check this, but they don't have to tell you, but they shouldn't be basing the calculation on her receiving benefits if she isn't doing so. If you think she is claiming benefits and shouldn't be (if she's getting an income from the property for instance), then you could speak to the DWP as she may be cheating the system (serious offence). Otherwise, you could go for a variation with the CSA - this is an official appeal system, and the first stage is filling in a form giving reasons why you are appealing - the CSA can reject this, but have to then give a reason why, so you may get some answers that way. Costs nothing to try this.

Finally, if you ex is not giving you contact, is there a contact order in place? if not, then you need to go to court to get one, and if she breaches this, then there are penalties -ultimately jail is an option for persistant breach.

Thanks again for more advice.
I have been seperated from my ex for almost 5 years an dhave been haggling for ages over the final consent order. I have not once paid anything to the CSA nor been asked too.

Visitation is another thing all together, and to be honest with you .. there is a very slim chance of my ex ever doing time for ignoring a court order. Im not sure where you live but not where she lives. She moved 200 miles away from me to make it more difficult for contact and even more difficult to attend court in her County.

I agree that seeing a lawyer is the best option. What choice do I have if the CSA ignore the courts.
Let me see what the legal people on the site say and also, i am hoping to meet with a lawyer this week to get a better idea of where I stand.

Thanks again.

H

Hi Hunt,

OK, good luck, and let us know how you get on - it may help others. I don't suppose you have evidence that she moved solely to make contact difficult? Not sure what you can do now, but it's about the only reason the courts will prevent the parent with care from moving.

Cheers

Dear Hunt1234,

Thank you for contacting the Children’s Legal Centre.

You stated in one of your posts that the order prohibiting your ex wife from applying to the CSA is actually a consent order.
If this is correct then your ex partner is able to apply to the CSA after that order has been in place for 12 months or more, and you should have been advised on this by your legal representation at the time.

This may also be the case with an order put in place purely by the court that is not a consent order.

This does mean that the mother has not breached the court order by contacting the CSA and they are able to look into the matter as they would with any other case.

With regards to finding out whether your ex partner is on benefits, this would be something for the CSA to undertake when making the calculation on what maintenance you are liable to pay.

You are able to contact a solicitor regarding this matter if you wish, but it is unlikely to resolve this matter or have the CSA uninvolved as the court will often refuse to look at maintenance issues where the CSA have become involved unless there are exceptional circumstances.

If you wish to speak with a solicitor, you can see whether you are eligible for legal aid using the online calculator; http://www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/ ... ution=e1s1
If you are not eligible for legal aid, you may be able to get a set period of time, usually 30 minutes, of free advice depending on the solicitor you choose to use. Following this you would be required to pay privately for any legal assistance you receive.

With regards to contact, the mother is obligated to give you any contact as stated in a contact order granted by the court. If there is a contact order in place and she is not doing this, then the mother would be in breach of that order and you are able to apply to court for enforcement of it.

If there is not a contact order in place, then the person who has the children physically residing with them is able to decide what contact they have with others, including the other parent, as contact is not a parents right, it is the children’s and until they are able to decide on this matter for themselves (absolutely at 16 years old, but possibly younger depending on their maturity) it is for the adult that they are living with to decide what is in their best interests.

If there is no court order in place and you are not happy with the contact that you are receiving, the first option is to attempt mediation to try and reach an agreement with the mother. The contact number for National Family Mediation is 01392 271610.

Should mediation be unsuccessful or the mother refuses to attend, you would have the option of making an application to court for a contact order. This would be a legally binding order stating the days and times the children are to see you.

The court would hear all the circumstances and would decide based on what is thought best for the children what contact is appropriate.

To apply to court, you are able to use a solicitor or represent yourself, whichever you prefer. You are able to see whether you qualify for legal aid in the way stated above.

We hope this information is useful to you. Should you require further advice please contact our Child Law Advice Line on 0808 8020 008 and an advisor will be happy to help you.

Kind Regards
Children’s Legal Centre

Thanks for your help.

I have given up the battle for visitation about 3 years ago. Many years of driving hundreds of miles to have the kids be sick or on holiday upon collection. Also the judge would not discuss the case unless the Mother was present...guess what she was "away for work" for 8 of the 9 court hearings. I think there are too many ways around the visitation order and I have now gone bankrupt trying to get penal notices and enforcement orders. A true waste of time for me...

I will let you know how everything else goes. The ex has broken the consent order in a few places. More to do with my bank accounts and property.

I will get legal advice.

Thanks again.

Above all, don't give up - try to keep in regular contact, even if you can't visit them. If you do this, when they are old enough to make the decision for themselves, they will want to see you and your ex won't be able to stop them.

This just in...

I recieved a phone call from the CSA saying the have ruled out the Consent Order and I owe back maintainance back to 2007. They are sending a letter explaining their decision siting the 1991 Child Maintainance Act.
They have also said they intend to take 49% of my salary at the end of this month. Said it was the legal amount.
Why do I get so many different opinions over this issue?

I'm stunned by this - first by the amount they are taking (and exactly how are they taking this ?), and second by the fact that they seem to be backdating to before they were contacted. As far as I was aware, they can't go back to before they were first contacted (I was told this originally by CSA when I was going against my ex for maintenance) - however it looks as though I may be wrong on this, so would appreciate confirmation.

Edit: - just had a quick check online, and seems to confirm that the CSA cannot go back further than the date they were first contacted by your ex - so I'd argue this with them, assuming that your ex didn't contact them in 2007 - this gives a good summary http://www.childsupportlaws.co.uk/back- ... nance.html