[Solved] Nightmare ex, child access & contact order

Hi Lee. It all sounds very messy. However, I'm going to give my opinion on it, and I'm afraid it may sound somewhat harsh.

Firstly, all that went on with your ex mother-in-law doesn't sound normal and it gives us a picture of the situation, but it's in the past - it is no longer relevant, so don't bring it up if you get to court, it will confuse the current issue. The same goes for your ex's son - however good your relationship was with him, you have no legal rights whatsoever - if you are worried for his welfare, then the most you can do is to voice your concerns to social services - they may not take any action, but if they have other reports, such as from school, then it may give them additional information, but that's about it.

Now, to the matter of your daughter - there is no doubt from your post that there have been mistakes on both sides. Your problem is that to go to court and get anywhere, you need to go with clean hands, and I'm afraid you can't do this. On one hand, you are complaining that your ex isn't sticking to the court order, and yet you are also not complying by not taking her back at the arranged times. You are potentially leaving yourself open to a charge of child abduction (and the police have been involved, which doesn't help) or contempt of court, which the courts take very seriously. If your daughter is upset about going back, then it is your job to reassure her, but you take her back on time whether she is upset or not. If it's a persisent problem, then you prepare her earlier for going back - you may not like it, but a contact order is not to be taken lightly. You cannot simply inform your ex that you are keeping your daughter for longer to make up for lost time, a court will not accept that. Your ex is perfectly entitled to quote the contact order as being the times for contact - there is no obligation for her to be flexible, otherwise there would be no point in contact orders at all. As for not giving your ex your address, I am not sure of the legal position about this, but if my ex was keeping my daughter at an unknown address (my children reside with me), I would certainly be taking steps to prevent this.

You are now in the position where your ex is going back to court and stopping contact until the hearing. Unfortunately for you, even though there is a contact order, it is not unreasonable for her to do this pending a court hearing, and a court will probably not penalise her for this (I did exactly this just over a year ago, so I speak from experience). You may not like receiving letters from your ex, but since communication has broken down, letters are a perfectly acceptable form of communication and you will have to learn to accept that.

My advice is that, when you go to court, you are very contrite and admit that you should have stuck to the court order and that you will do so in future to the letter. Do not try to say that your ex broke the court order, so you thought it acceptable to do so as well, or anything like that. You are going to have to try to be the model father - both in court, and afterwards, and if later on, you are unhappy with contact you are being allowed, then you either try to agree it in advance with your ex, or if that doesn't work, then go for mediation or a variation of the contact order, but under no circumstances should you break the terms of the contact order again.

Sorry if this isn't necessarily what you want to hear, but the advice I have given (and it is only my opinion) is aimed at helping you to get the contact you are looking for in the future. Please don't be put off from posting more as I am honestly trying to help, as will others on this forum - you obviously care a lot for your daughter, which is the best place to start.

It is certainly worth you having a word with the Children's Legal Centre for more concise legal advice about what you should do now.

Hi extremalee,

That's an epic post mate, I will ask our legal partners the Childrens Legal Centre to pop by and have a look. They should be able to give you some useful legal advice.

Gooner :ugeek:

Lee,

I have re read your post multiple times now and am at a loss as to what I can add. The CLC will be much better at telling you where you stand legally. I'm sure other DadTalkers will be on here to give their opinions. I can't imagine what you have been going through or how powerless you must feel at the moment, good news is this is the best place to come - even if its just for a moan.

Hang in there and keeping checking back for other advice and sage words from the CLC.

Gooner

Hi again,
Many thanks for the response so far it is very much appreciated, its the unbiased feedback etc that is really helping out.

A few other things i would like to add:-
I mention the mother a law as it is of major importance to the current aswell as the past situation. Its not a case of she broke court order so i will too, it's not like that at all. All i want is for my daughter to have a meaningfull relationship with both parents & for it not to be all one sided with me being pushed to the side. I would never act the way she is acting it is not in the best interests of any child. I have tried to be amicable from day one & have always maintained our childs feelings & what I know any child would want. She is not being reasonable in anyway whatsoever. I suggested we discuss access, i suggested mediation & all i got was No Thanks. After several pieces of solicitor communication her own solicitor suggested mediation (Isn't that what I already tried?) anyway we went & came to an agreement it was written & sent to both our solicitors. I then requested we settle out of court as we had agreed via mediation. Her solicitor then responded with my Ex's words saying the mediator misunderstood the arrangement & therefore cannot be settled out of court.

I have today recieved the letter from her solicitor (One day after the apparent breach)
In short it quotes the contact order times & days, and states i did not return out daughter on sunday & instead returned her on monday, Our client will now be stopping all contact with your daughter until the court hearing as she believes you are not prioritising her needs & do not have her best interests at heart.

Well that letter does not say her solicitor advised her to stop contact, nor does it mention she was aware i would return her on monday, nor does it mention anything accept what my Ex has told them to write. I know full well a solicitor has no power to do such a thing only the court can make that decision, she might aswell have got the neighbor to write it.

I mean seriously to say i do not have my daughters interests at heart & prioritising her needs whilst she is now stopping me seeing her is a total contradiction. My daughter is my number one priority always has been & always will be, she has the best care & enjoys every moment spent with me. My Ex hates this as she is not confined to the bubble when she is with me, she interacts with other children & my family & friends. She never mentions mummy & never says she wants to go home, yet when i collect her she charges at the door daddy daddy daddy. Something is seriously amiss here & i need it resolved for my daughters sake.

In an ideal world i would like our responsibilty as parents to be shared 50/50 this would never be agreed by her & she would fight that as much as she could. When will I be able to take or collect my daughter from school? go to parent evenings? or have any say in her upbringing? the answer is never, because she dosnt want me too.

When I left she denied me from taking any of my daughters clothing, toys or anything else, I had to buy everything even tho we had bought it all together or been given things. I asked for things for the benefit of our daughter & was denied. A major annoyance but I prioritised purchasing these things. I mean it would not be a crime for her to have offered a few items of clothing, but it just seems yet another restriction being imposed on me.

I have since lost my job over this as it was really getting to me with all the solicitor visits, court etc etc & generally all the [censored] that went with it, as of friday i have also lost my home & made sure my daughter was catered for in the best possible way, we stayed at a very good friends who has 2 of her own young children & they all interacted & played fantastically all weekend. My daughter just does not experience any of this whilst in the mothers care & its a dam shame because i feel she is being restricted in experiencing the real world now & in the future.

So much more to say but i need to pause for a while.

Hi Lee

I understand that you have your daughter's best interests as a priority. You have to understand that you are going into court from a weak position. It doesn't matter how wrong your ex is, the fact is that at present, she has residence and you are trying to convince the court to give you as much access as possible, and you have to convince the court that they have good cause to do this - this is why you have to be whiter than white. It is difficult - I have been through it myself, so I know how hard it can be to have to hold back when you really don't want to. However, if you can do this, then the courts may well see that your ex is being unreasonable for the sake of it, and that will make your case that bit stronger.

Keep posting and we'll help as much as we can - and don't give up, whatever the outcome, your daughter will see that you care and that reallty does matter. 🙂

Hi again. as of last night some more information has come to light, as I feel I really need to dig deep to get to the bottom of this situation. It is appearing that the whole relationship was a lie & a controlled in a very unhealthy way, it is exactly the same experience & goes very deep. Please read the below conversation, obviously I have changed all names & address's
I am now at a point where I very worried for the emotional stability of my daughter & her upbringing.

...............................

I'm not sure if I have the right person but I am trying to track down Dave jacobs?

i do know a dave jacobs yes, but obv dont no if its the right person! can you give me more info

Hi there, apologies for not getting back.
The Dave I am trying to trace used to married to My Ex. I too am now the latest ex partner of her & am in a legal battle with regards to our daughter. I was wondering if you could pass this message on & if he wouldnt mind contacting me or for me to contact him. There seem to be some very serious issues surrounding My Ex current actions with regard to our daughter & I would just like to find out if these were also observed by Dave. If he would rather not then I fully understand. Many Thanks

yes i do know that Ex!!! i have forwarded your message to Dave but i'm afraid thats all i can do as we do not speak, i had hoped never to have anything to do with the woman ever again as she is a nasty nutty [censored] and was awful to mine and Dave's daughter while they were married.
good luck with your case.

i hope you do get access or custody.
i met Your Ex about 8 years ago when me and Dave split up she lived in Dove close then with her mum and dad and (Sister) and (Son). her and Dave got together failry quick and she eneded up living in silver street in my old house-with my stuff!!!!!! Sarah (my daughter then 9 now 17) visisted on access but Your Ex was a [censored] and Sarah hates her. they then moved to windsor close in Stevenage think thats where they split up. cant stand her mum they are both strange and seemed to control Dave. Sarah will tell you that she had to babysit (Son) when she was there and didnt get fed properly. i can ask her if she will speak to you if you want as she was there? i hate Your Ex because she made my daughter unhappy and took over my old home and my stuff!!
i have seen her with a daugher a few times-she's cute. we all used to rib Dave and say Your Ex only married him for a passport lol
obv dont really like spilling my guts to strangers! but i wanted to help.

Hi sorry one last question, did My Ex obtain her passport from being Dave's partner or was it obtained before?

to be honest i'm not sure about the passport her and her mum where always saying diff things. the witch's mum worked with my brother in law so there was always a diff tale to tell. as far as i knew she didnt have one, but (Son) did??? and they did something to do with courts and passports after they married. it always seemed a little odd from the start, she said she wanted another child and then married a man who cant have any!
good luck with your little one, wish i could help more but there where a lot of lies told at the time. all i knew for definate was what i saw and that is that she was the step mum from [censored] and i wanted to bang her out!
pls dont think all women are like her!!! lol

.......................................

The daughter is writing a full account of what she can remember, signed & dated. These people I have never met or spoken to before. I have been oblivious to most of it for the atleast the first 2 years of our relationship & started to see there were serious control & manipulation issues arrising. This I know for a fact will be very damaging for my daughter as it already observed in her son aswell as mother & daughter.

Please dont bite my head off, but i am now very concerned.

I know there is some bitterness in there, but to tell me all that & not even know me there is nothing to be gained from it. there is also so much very important information there that is a mirror of what is going on.

just seems odd:-

Leave South Africa with child & parents with no father on birth cert - Father probably forced away
Find a partner get together fast & married, get ILR passport cant have child, get divorced.
Take him to the cleaners for property contents & money.
I come along, get together fast, have child fast & they couldnt control/manipulate me so came up with there get rid of him plan & leave with nothing.
Constantly exploring every avenue in restricting contact with daughter.
They want zero outside influence - They are like there own little cult.

HELP

Hi

I am really sorry to hear about this whole situation. Your ex is either being manipulated or is in cahoots with her mother. I think you have been given some very sound advice by actd but it will be interesting to see what the legal experts come up with.

Your ex clearly isn't considering what is best for your little girl, it happens so often in these kind of situations. The thing is you don't want to antagonise the situation any further as it will go against you when you get to court again.

Hang in there, I know it's tough for you right now, but it will be worth it to have that valuable time with your daughter. What's really sad is your're ex's son, who clearly had a good relationship with you under the circumstances. What a great shame he is being denied any contact with you.

Let us know how you get on.

Thanks for that Mikey & the other posters.

It is all sound advice as you said & i am not going to be antagonising the situation. For the most part I have done it all by the book until that recent incident. I hope the CLC do come back with some proper legal advice, I visited solicitor today but cannot get in until the 30th which I have booked anyway. since those messages i recieved yesterday so many alarm bells are ringing & everything is making perfect sense. If you ever met them you would know exactly what I mean, every person with any involvement has basicly been deleted. There are reasons behind it & its all coming together, hopefully to help me.

Another thing - My daughter used to not want to go near most people including my own mum, it has taken me months of her having contact with them for her to finally enjoy that contact. Even tho she had no problem running up to the Ex's mother she would always run away from mine. Odd dont you think?? Her mother was around & still is around 24/7. It seems they are trying to destroy that again by keeping her away from everyone. Do they care? Not in the slightest....
Thanks

Hi again folks I have recieved a response from the Ex partner & this is what he said. It is confirming everything & really dont know what to do. It is an an exact mirror of my situation

Sorry to hear of your situation.
Sadly it has been my experience that legal battles will not get you anywhere, and will cost you a fortune.
The legal system is unfair and loaded against fathers.

Ok well what can I tell you ?

Ex, Mother and Son ?

Ex was controlled by her mother.
Son, well he was only young, so cant comment much. Spoilt and badly behaved.
Mother..........very unpleasant person, and her obsession with Son was not normal not healthy and quite frankly deeply disturbing.

My experience was that things were great to start, but slowly as they got what they wanted from you things changed.
I was made unwelcome, and was treated unpleasantly.
Any attempt to fix this was met with more hostility and blame.

I felt that they considered they were still in south Africa, in the apartite years, and they were the masters and I was the help.
You may be thinking I am just bitter and twisted, but I am not.
I reached a point where I could take no more, which is when I split up with Ex. It was not an easy break, she or rather Mother wanted as much money from me as possible.
But it was worth every penny to escape.

The past....

I was told that Ex was previously engaged, but her fiancé ditched her a few days before the wedding. Hmm should have realized some thing there !
I have no Idea as to son's Father. I believe they would not let him have any contact and did not put his details on the birth certificate.

Sorry cant be more help. I have tried to forget that time of my life.

I hope things work out for you.

Best regards

Dave

OK, my situation may be unusual, but the system is becoming less presumptious that a child should live with the mother, and there is a general acceptance that contact with both parents is best for a child unless there is a good reason otherwise.

If you use a solicitor, then it is often expensive, but you can do it yourself, and the family courts generally are there to work for the best interests of the child, and if you aren't too confident in court, they will guide as much as possible to get to the bottom of the facts. There is also nothing to prevent you going back to court again if you think the facts or situation has changed.

Whatever you do, don't give up - that's the worst thing you can do to any child as far as your relationship is concerned. And you'll get plenty of support on here 🙂 )

Dear Extremalee,

Thank you for contacting the Children’s Legal Centre, we apologise for the delay in responding to your query.

As there is a court order in place stating what contact you are to have with your daughter, then this is what should be complied with by both parties.
If the mother is not allowing you contact on the stated times then you are able to apply back to court for enforcement. However the court may allow a small amount of flexibility for holiday or illness so long as the order is being complied with otherwise.

Although your ex partner may have taken one of your weekends for a family holiday, it is not reasonable for you to unilaterally decide that you will take more time to make up for this, and you should always ensure that your daughter is returned by the time stated in the order, regardless of how upset she may be, unless this is agreed by the mother as the court would not approve of you not complying with the contact order and the mother could apply to enforce this and you may be penalised or the order may be altered or contact restricted if the court consider this a serious enough breach.

Unfortunately, although it would be reasonable for the parents of a child to be more flexible with contact, you are legally entitled to what is stated in the court order and only that, so if the mother wishes to refuse you any other contact she is completely within her rights to do so and your option, if you are not happy, is to apply to court to vary the order and attempt to get more contact, and the court would decide whether or not to grant this.

With regards to the current situation, although contact should not be refused when there is a court order in place, as you have not been complying with this and this is the reason the mother has reapplied to court, it is possible that she will face no penalty for this. The court can also order that you reveal your address to the mother as it is reasonable for a parent to know where their child is staying even though this is not a legal right. This will all be at the discretion of the court.

Although in court you are able to bring up any concerns that you may have regarding the mother’s care of the child, it is unlikely to be advisable to be negative regarding the relationship between the mother and her family as the court view these relationships as important to a child’s wellbeing unless it is detrimental to the child or puts the child at risk in any way.

Also, with regards to the conversation you have had with the mother’s ex partner this is may not be considered by the court as they are concerned only with your situation and your daughter, not what may or may not have happened in the past unless it directly affects your child, which it does not. The messages posted seem to be very hostile towards the mother and it may appear that you are being malicious if these are used in court.
If you have genuine concerns for the mother’s care of the children you can contact Social Services, who will decide whether there is a need for them to visit the mother, and possibly become involved if they felt there was any risk to the children.

When it comes to the mother providing clothing and toys etc for your daughter to have at your home, she is not legally required to do this. It is reasonable for a parent to pack some form of overnight bag or something similar when a child is staying away from the home, however you are expected to provide for your daughter when she is in your care and so the mother does not have to provide you with anything if she does not wish to do so.

It is advisable where possible that any form of communication is in writing, such as emails and letters (although text messages are not considered as strong) as this allows parents to keep a record of what has been agreed and the courts to see that a parent has been reasonable in negotiations.

If you wish to have your daughter living with you, or living in a shared arrangement with you and the mother, then you are able to apply to the court for this at any time. The court will consider all the circumstances and make a decision based on what is thought best for the child in question. The court are reluctant to change a child’s residence without serious reason if the child has become used to living with one parent, especially if there are other siblings in the home and will only do this if it is thought to be in the child’s best interests.

It is no longer the case that the courts are in favour of the mother and has not been for many years. The courts are concerned with what is best for the child in each individual situation, and will act accordingly.

We hope that this information is useful to you, should you require any further advice please contact the Child Law Advice Line on 0808 8020 008 and an advisor will be happy to help.

Kind Regards
Children’s Legal Centre