[Solved] Struggling - advice needed on divorce/housing

Hi there

It's really tough to try and find a way through this, but to be honest I can't see any way that you can, and keep everyone happy. Even if you were to find the mortgage money, she would still struggle to keep afloat as far as paying all the bills for such a large house, with the day to, day living expenses on top.... if she drives, that's further outgoings again.

Perhaps others might have some suggestions, I must admit the financial side of things isn't my forte, but would advise that you seek some proper legal/financial advice.

Best of luck

I agree with mojo, I don't think there's a way you can keep everyone happy. If you wife wants the divorce,then she is going to have to accept that there need to be some sacrifices made on her part, not just on yours.

I feel for you Adam80 - things will seem quite dark at the moment. You are an honest and reasonable man, you obviously love your children and you probably still love your wife, you cannot understand why she does not want to be with you.

If it is any help (I'm afraid it will not be much solace) I don't think this circumstance is all that rare. Women quite often come to like the idea of keeping the family house (usually the most important asset in a family) but would rather not share it with their husband. In cases where there is much more equity in the property women often get away with it and end up keeping the property with the children. In your circumstances I don't think there is any way you will be able to afford to keep your nice 4 bedroom house, it may be that when your wife realises - and that the alternative is renting a smaller house, she will may change her mind about getting divorced. If not then she will probably get the larger part of your savings and whatever equity there is in the house, but if she is not earning much she will probably not be able to buy another property. This may not be a disaster in the long term - house ownership is not for everyone. I don't think you would be able to stay on the mortgage once divorced, and even if you did find a way of doing that I think you would be extremely foolish to do so - lots can happen in the next 24 years on the mortgage.

You seem to have already agreed to move out of the house - the best advice is (IMHO) not to do so - however difficult life gets.

As far as you are concerned - it will be nearly impossible for you to buy again unless you are freed from your current house ownership. You would have to pay an additional 3% stamp duty for a second property purchase and I don't think you would be able to convince any lender you can afford it unless you win the Lotto.

You and your wife are only a year or so into a mortgage, so there will not be much equity in the house. It would be better for both of you to cut your losses now, agree a division of your savings and equity, agree a split of time with the children (shared parenting is a really good idea, it can work just fine, but mothers often dislike it when they realise they will lose lots of money) and both find a nice rental property. That would be the least bad solution, what might happen is that your wife turns nasty when it occurs to her that life will not be as comfortable as she thought it would be, she may accuse you of DV in order to qualify for some taxpayer funded legal aid (so beware of that, it is very common) and use access to your kids as a lever to get some more cash - or just to vent her ire.

The least bad way forward will be to stay where you are until the split and financial deal are settled (don't move out of the house - it will also be cheaper), to get your wife to understand that you (two) don't own much of it yet so there isn't much cash to grab. Pursue the shared parenting - it will be best for your young children. Look after yourself as best you can, keep your self respect, stay close to your children, don't turn to the drink and keep fit and healthy.

Good fortune Adam80,

This is really good advise, well worth the read.

Hey Adam80, hope you're good. I second other word for word, affordability and sustainability are key. As your kids get older they will no doubt get more expensive to maintain - driving lessons, college, uni. I know it's far right now, but this will all happen while you're paying the mortgage as a phantom resident on the deed/mortgage docs and also renting a place.

I think you should sit with you wife and talk about exactly how much everything will cost. She may need to bring in more than 6k, she may need to find a full time job. As much as I wish you work things out, if the outcome is separation then you need to be in the best position to see and spend time with your kids. They can't know you as the exhausted dad who never had time for them because he was too busy paying for a house he doesn't live in and also another property. You'll get knackered my friend. I say you accept the outcome but although your kids will always be number one, you'll be their number one - look after your health and your wealth.

I hope you get past this and whatever happens stay strong for your kids, they will appreciate it further down the line no doubt

Thanks
Yasser

Thank you so much to everyone who has taken the time to reply to my message, it's given me a bit of a lift to know there are people out there who can see how hard this situation is and how much I want to sort it out.

I'm prepared to sacrifice a lot for her and the children to stay in our house and on my current earnings I could afford to run two houses but I am essentially self employed and none of my work comes with the security of contracts. I am well established in what I do and should be able to continue to maintain a good income, but with such a lot of responsibility on my shoulders I'm scared of what would happen if something went wrong.

It's really hard for me at the moment because when I say anything like this to her, or I explain how hard it would be for me to get a mortgage of my own, now or in the future, she just won't accept that as valid reasons to not remain on the current mortgage and keep them in the family home. She says I'm being "selfish" and that she'll tell the kids I "couldn't be arsed" to do it for them. She just says that I'll be fine because I "have money" and that I should "just rent for three years and save up a deposit". When I point out that how much deposit I save up is irrelevant because banks just don't like giving out 2nd residential mortgages, she just gets really angry and we both end up rowing.

I just feel completely trapped. If I don't do find a way to keep them in the home she's going to get really nasty and I don't know how I'd cope if she ever tried to stop me seeing the kids, I love them so much, I'd do anything for them. If I do keep them in the home then I know I'm probably making financial mistake that could impact my entire future.

My only faint hope is that solicitors/financial advisers can find some way to structure it so that this isn't the case, but I totally understand the argument of those who say we just need to sell. The only issue with that is that she will not even be able to afford the rent on a property of her own, so I'll end up paying her rent and my own rent/mortgage anyway and we'll all be in lesser homes too. It's all just madness, utter madness.

We've both worked our way up as a couple from very humble beginnings to a very comfortable standard of living, and it is all being thrown away, We did it as as team too which is the most depressing part.

Thanks again to all who have replied

Hi again Adam80,

I was thinking about your circumstance as I walked the dog this morn.

This all comes down to money. You are slightly fortunate that you live in a cheaper part of the country (there are not many places where a 4 bedroom house can be had for £213k). The facts are that you have liabilities of £209k and assets of about the same (houses have not gone up much in the past year, but let's say your place has appreciated by about the same as it will cost you to sell it, so it is about neutral) plus your savings of £34k. You say you have a good job, so let's say you earn £50k PA, or £40k after tax, NI and pension (you can adjust the numbers up or down according to your real income) and your wife earns £6k PA. Roger so far?

If you get divorced and your wife becomes the resident parent you would end up paying her 25% of your net wages (so £10k PA) as CM. If you have the children living with you for 3 nights per week this will reduce to about £7k PA, so your (by then) ex-wife would have an income of £13k PA. There is no way the bank will allow her to service a £213k mortgage on £13k PA, so you would have to sell the house and get something smaller for her. There would not be any reason why she would not work full time, but I'm guessing she is in a low paid occupation so even if she doubled her wages that only gives her a salary of £16k PA an income of £23k PA. I don't think she would be able to service a mortgage of more than £100k (and even that may be too much) on that wage. If you gave her all your savings (as I think you would probably have to) of £34k then the most expensive house she would be able to buy would be £134k - I don't know where you live but there are not many parts of the country where one could buy a 3 bedroom house for £130k (allowing a bit for costs). You can do some research and show her what she might afford (assuming she works full time, and you are happy to give your wife all your savings). The reality of this may well have a very sobering effect.

Turning to yourself. If you are going to look after your 2 children for 3 nights per week then you will need a 3 bedroom house. Let's assume you can buy one similar to your wife's future property for £130k, but of course you can't do that at the moment because you don't have a deposit (remember you gave your savings to your wife in the paragraph above), so you will have to save about £13k before you can re-enter the realm of property ownership and in the meantime you will have to rent a 3 bedroom place. I don't know where you you live in the country, but let's assume you need something similar to a place I let out in the East Midlands. The rent would be £8000 PA, plus £1000 for council tax and £1000 for utilities -so £10k PA. Above we assumed you had a salary of £40k after tax, NI and pension, reduced to £33k after CM and now £23k after housing costs. You will probably have to run a car and do things like eat, clothe yourself and look after those 2 children 3 nights per week - so you are not going to save another £13k for a house deposit very quickly.

You can adjust the figures yourself according to your real salary and house purchase and rental costs in your area, but I'm pretty sure you will come to the same conclusion that I have: that your ex-wife will struggle a great deal to purchase a house, and that you will not be able to in the foreseeable future, so you will both end up renting (good news for BTL landlords like me, less so for you and your wife). These are the figures you need to explain to your wife.

I think the idea of being a phantom mortgage payer on your current house is ridiculous (and I really don't think the bank will wear it once you disclose you are divorced). You have another 24 years to go on the mortgage (all £209k of it) and 13 years for your liability for your children would end. By that time you will be 50 (I'm guessing your wife will be about the same age) and I can't see you being able to get her (and probably a new partner with his 2 children) out of the house so you can get half the equity back. By then a repayment loan would only have paid off about 30% of the mortgage, so you will still owe something like £140k on the house. In the meantime I don't think you would be able to buy again (without a small Lotto win) because on top of the factors I discussed above you would be liable for an additional 3% stamp duty on your second home. It is hard to see that your (by then) ex-wife would ever be able to buy you out (unless she also has a small Lotto win).

I keep coming to the conclusion that you don't have enough money to satisfy what your wife wants, and to carry on living in a reasonable way yourself. Once your wife realises that she may either give up the divorce idea (maybe, and I do hope so) or take the common route so that she keeps the children full time to maximise CM and her slice of the estate, accuses you of DV to get some taxpayer funded legal aid, uses 'unreasonable behaviour' as her reason for divorce so you have to pick up the tab (this doesn't really require any evidence and is just too expensive to challenge through the courts). If all that happens shared parenting will be an impossibility, you will be able to afford a bedsit so the children will not be able to stay and it will be difficult to maintain a strong relationship with them.

I know this is hard (probably the hardest thing so far in your life), but what do you do now? The first thing is to explain the financial situation to your wife, it sounds like she thinks you are much better off than you are. She may realise that you are far better off together. If that doesn't work then don't move out of your house (don't even think about it - you can't afford it and if you do you will lose your house, your money and you kids), move into the spare bedroom (luckily you have 4, so there is plenty of room), if your wife still wants the divorce then there is a 2 year separation period (unless she uses the unreasonable behaviour route - if that happens buy some body armour), but in that time you will be seeing your children every day, you can save some more money because you won't be paying rent and you can sort out things out better. Your wife may not like this idea, but as long as you really are not beating her it would be hard for her to argue against you living in the spare bedroom of your own house.

As I said at the start - this all comes down to money. You are comfortable as a family at the moment, but you don't have enough money to support two homes.

Good fortune Adam80 - look after yourself and your children.

PS. I was correcting some typos in the above when I noticed you had posted another message. I see you are self employed. I will guarantee there will be at least one financial downturn in the next 24 years and at some time interest rates will be over 5% again - so do not entertain being the phantom mortgage payer, you will just end up bankrupt and homeless, and what good will that be to your children?

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.
My wife filed for divorce just over a week ago. She says she has put down my 'behaviour' as the reason for the divorce. I still haven't heard from her solicitor (who is a fixed fee solicitor) but she says the reasons were that I am not there enough because of my work and that I have not done enough to help her around the house. I asked her if she had alleged 'unreasonable behaviour' and she said no.

Neither of us have any experience or even any close family members with experience of divorce. She has told me today that because she has hired a fixed fee solicitor (which her parents are paying for) there is no room for negotiation between solicitors. I told her that isn't possible as the issues are too legally and financially complicated for us to sort out ourselves. She just thinks we can agree everything ourselves and then put it in a 'consent order'.

However I try to explain that the issues she just does not want to listen. I can't get through to her. She just says I'm selfish and can't be arsed to keep her and the kids in their home and that she is going to tell them that I didn't care about them and could have stopped them having to move out. It's impossible. I'm now terrified that this is getting so acrimonious that we are never going to be able to co-parent, or that she'll try and stop me seeing them. Even this morning she had threatened to take the kids away and move out.

I earned approx 90k in the last year before tax, it was 80k the year before, again before tax. Since July 2016 though I have been a limited company, so my actual earnings from the company, which is what a lender would look at, will be much less than that.

We live in North Nottinghamshire and property is reasonably priced, but even if I can sustain my current income, afford the 3% stamp duty and maintain payments on two homes, the reality is there are few, if any lenders who'll give me a second residential mortgage. I don't want to rent for years and years, and always be waiting for her to want to sell the house.

It's all just a complete mess, but every day and every time I speak to her it gets worse and worse. She just cannot, or does not want to see that I'm trying to sort this out in the best way for all of us. All she has done this morning is tell me I'm 'puttimg obstacles in the way' of her staying in the house.

Difficult, isn't it?
The 'grounds for divorce' can only be adultery, desertion, separation (2 or 5 years) or unreasonable behaviour. It sounds to me that her solicitor will have told her to go for the last one. In practice unreasonable behaviour is very easy to allege with no proof, and practically impossible to defend against without huge legal bills. You will probably have to agree not to contest the claims (but not admit them) which will mean that you will end up paying at least half your wife's legal bills (that is why solicitors like it, they will probably get paid) - irritating, isn't it?
If you are declaring a salary of £90k before tax (say £60k after) then your wife might expect to get £15k in CM, if she can persuade the court the kids should reside with her. It sounds like she will say you are too busy with your business to take care of the children 3 days a week. Do you see where this is going? I don't think she is going to agree to shared residency (her solicitor will have told her to fight it).
I can't see any court making you stay on the mortgage deed, so she will have to take on the loan herself - and it will be a struggle for her to persuade the bank to loan her £165k on an income of £22k, even if you offer to settle the help to buy loan (I have a feeling you will end up doing that with your savings).
There will probably be some nastiness, be prepared for that. You may well end up seeing your kids every other weekend, but still try for the shared parenting (it can work really well) but be prepared for a fight.

Good fortune.

Hey Adam80, you have a really big heart willing to sacrifice so much for someone who hasn't done much in ways of figuring out a future. You sound like a top guy and don't deserve any of this.

In the future your kids will grow their own sense of independence and whatever your wife says to them will be filtered thru their own thought process. I would seriously consider stop paying for the home of you aren't in it...only by way of principal. Your children need you more than she needs a home paying for. Sell it if you can, she will get CM payments and that will be a fair bit, she will be able to find a place to rent.

Just to think out of the box a little, in the future you may just find yourself someone new, and she may too. Why would you then pay for her new partner etc? And your partner would wander how much more you could do with yourself and your new life if you didn't commit to paying for a home you don't live in. Whatever your kids will be told, you can tell them the truth. When they are old enough to handle responsibilities like mortgages and family for themselves, you will be known as much much more better things than "he couldn't be arsed". In all honesty, if things are coming to an end with no fix in sight...let her go. You got married til the end, and if this is the end, let her find someone who is willing to everything you did - she won't be able to.

Also someone mentioned her getting legal aid etc. In times like these please stay in control of your messages you send and your behaviour. Don't give her anything to say "he is violent". I really hope she can see the reasons you got together and stay together, but if she doesn't I really think you should lookout for yourself and the kids.

Sounds like you'll be giving her a free ticket for life this way.

All the best
Thanks.
Yasser

Hello Adam80,

Your wife has initiated divorce proceedings hence altering the dynamics of the family unit as it has been.

Added to which you state she will not negotiate with you in a reasonable and sensible manner, is becoming acrimonious, makes unwarranted nasty comments and is beginning to use the children as pawns at a time you are trying your utmost to do your best for her and the children.

You now have insight as to how unreasonable she can be and possibly will remain or even become more so.

In all of this, it would appear with no consideration given to your present situation or what it would be if you submitted to her demands.

Your wife appears to be "at war" with you under the misapprehension she will not be a casualty of it but she will and it will be of her own making not yours.

In my opinion you need to look very carefully and consider much when making financial decisions as you could find yourself in dire financial straits if you do what she demands with regard to moving out and particularly taking on the mortgage.

You have a life to live after this is sorted out! Importantly you need the finances to provide a comfortable home for yourself and children when they come to stay with you after all this has been settled.

I personally would not leave the family home!
If you do leave and submit to her demands re. the mortgage, I can foresee contact with your children could become extremely difficult purely by the fact you would no longer be living there.

Your wife has already intimated, quote,"she threatened to take the kids away and move out."
I believe she is trying to make you feel guilty and in my opinion the comment made is tantamount to blackmail and a controlling tactic using the children as pawns which I don't believe anyone should give in to as it could encourage that person to keep doing it repeatedly.
She could threaten to deny you assess to contact with the children if her wishes are not met. If that happened, I personally would not give in to that type of control and would seek contact by going through the courts to gain access.

I personally would not consider for one minute leaving my home in these circumstances and paying the mortgage on a house I did not live in.
You could financially jeopardize your entire future and consequently your ability to provide a home for yourself and that of your children independently from your wife which I believe is a must and your main priority.

None of us know what the future holds and because of that, we have to take into account the unknown, the possible scenarios which could happen and change our financial position from what it is at present.

There are many, more than I mention here but it could be:-

1) years of paying for a mortgage you receive no benefit from which in effect could become a liability,
2) possible increase in interest rates,
3) negative equity,
4) incapacity to pay the mortgage due to ill health. What would happen then, repossession? Would there be a claim on your personal assets because you were the one who had taken on the responsibility to pay the mortgage?
5) The insecurities of being self employed. There could be a downturn in your business. Changes in employment law, corporation tax, higher interest rates, pensions, N.I. contributions etc. which could affect the business therefore your earnings
6) How would you feel about financing and providing a roof over another man's head if at a later date your wife had a new partner move in to the family home you were paying the mortgage on?
7) You yourself, may in time have a new partner whom you wish to provide for.

In each financial calculation you do, you need to be aware of and take into account the possible unknowns and the child maintenance you will have to pay which is mandatory.

It is not possible to reason with an unreasonable person and you cannot take on the responsibility for another persons actions or the consequences when it is caused by their own hand, not yours.

This is a difficult and unenviable time for you. I personally would don a sensible business head over this. Look at your situation objectively not emotionally, difficult to do, I know but it will enable you to make a sound, sensible judgement on matters. Stand firm and keep your emotions in check as any retaliation on your part could be used against you at a later date if things get very nasty.

I do not advocate being anything other than fair and reasonable which means TO YOURSELF as well as others.

I would at the earliest opportunity seek the advice of both a solicitor and your accountant.

*** Please note, the finances of a divorce is a separate issue to having access and contact with ones children.