[Solved] Residency - Best needs of our children

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your situation, it must be very difficult at the moment.

I haven't actually been through court personally (my partner is about to) but I thought you might appreciate a reply/another opinion. I'm sure someone else will be along soon with more experience of the court process. I'm a Mum myself who shares parenting with my ex husband so have experience from that point of view however my current partner (of over 4 years) has children who he usually has regular contact with (until recently....long story). So I have experience from both sides of this situation.

First off I think the most important thing is to remember that you both have to do what is best for both of your children and remember that this may not be what is best for you/her unfortunately. That can be a hard thing to come to terms with. The children haven't asked for any of this and it's so important that they're the no1 priority.

Personally I would think that separating the 2 children at this point whilst they're so young could be very upsetting for them both. They're already going through a big upheaval and change of circumstances so keeping them together through the contact arrangements will at least give them some stability in a sense. My 2 always see their Dad together and the thought of separating them worries me as I believe it's good that whilst their environment is different they still always have each other. On the other hand my partner's children are older and sometimes only one of the children stay with us (usually the youngest) as the other child has other plans with school/friends. I think the fact the kids are older and have been used to staying away from home (Mum) for 8 years factors in here whereas at the beginning they would always stay together so maybe with your situation you may decide to keep the children together now but as they get older and have their own opinions there could be times when contact would take place separately with them.

I would be surprised if the court would agree to the every other week arrangement at this age to be honest. I think the general consensus is that the children need a base home so to speak and from a practical point of view they'll have their own things they'll have attachments to at home too that may not be transferable if that makes sense. I know as an adult I wouldn't want to live in 2 different homes one week at a time and do dinners at the other house a couple of nights every week. I would think that this is too much for little people to have to deal with.

I also think that the one overnight a fortnight first offered by your wife wasn't enough. The Fri & Sat every other weekend I think is the standard arrangement in these situations however you could also suggest midweek dinner and extra days in the school holidays? An arrangement I've had in the past was that my children would stay with their Dad at the weekend but he'd have one weekend to himself a month and we arranged a calendar between us to cater to this. Don't forget that you could also request phone calls to speak with your children whilst you're away from them. Maybe mediation would be suitable for you both?

It's worrying that whilst you're in the marital home she's become aggressive and threatened to make allegations especially if the children are in the home. As you've said it's very important that you don't rise to it and perhaps think about the long term living arrangements to minimize this and to minimize the distress that this will cause the children.

All of what I've said is just my personal opinion but sometimes it's good to get an outsider's point of view. I hope that things can eventually be sorted out for all of you. Good luck.

Just to add just because this is my opinion doesn't mean that everyone else will agree, I'm fully aware that others may disagree with me 🙂

Hi there and welcome 🙂

I tend to agree with JayneMax here. Keeping the contact arrangements to include both children is essential and courts would be loathe to split the children to fit around the parents wishes.

Although there is no set amount of contact as such, I would say that the alternate weekends plus one teatime in the week is the baseline. Having said that there are arrangements that include larger blocks of days.... but this is probably where older children are involved as has been said.

JM mentioned Mediation which might be helpful here. It would give you both the opportunity to sit down and with the guidance of a trained Mediator, talk through all of the issues and reach an agreement that both of you find acceptable. Court is always the last resort. Hers a link to the Mediation website - www.nfm.org.uk ...There is a charge for this but if you are on a low income then you may be eligible for help with that.

My main concern for you is the threats made by your wife with regard to making false allegations of assault, and involving the police. If she does this then it could spark a whole heap of trouble for you and may well have a bearing on the amount of contact you will get when/if it went to court. This behaviour is more common than you would think, you only have to have a good trawl around the Forum to see that this happens quite a lot and the repercussions for Dads can be far reaching.

Thanks for your replies so far.

I managed to talk with a Wikivorce lawyer this morning and he had some interesting advice.

Firstly he said that if I went to court they examine the needs of each child independently. Given the 4.5 yr age difference it is quite possible for the court to order a different arrangement for each child. eg alternate weeks for the older child but the younger one to spend more time with the mother.

He also advised me to go to the police and report her activities so that if she ever did attempt to make false allegations they are already aware of the situation. I hadn't mentioned previously that she did actually assault me on Sunday. I don't want to take any action against her but apparently it is common place for false allegations to be made against a husband as a means of getting someone to leave the property.

All other comments very welcome.

I meant to add I have suggested mediation and she is refusing to consider it....

Hi Divorcing Dad

I am in total agreement with Jayne and NJ...I am surprised that Wikivorce lawyer told you that the Court would consider each child individually, I don't agree with that, and in fact would say that it could be seen as favouritism by the children in time, or when grown, you know what kids are like! 😆

As for shared parenting, whilst this is a great idea, I do feel that unless you live round the corner from each other I really don't think it would work being the ages that they are. If they were much older, yes I think its a fab idea.

I do agree with the Wiki lawyer though in that you should report her actions to the police, particularly as she did assault you on Saturday. you could still report her for that. Did you seek GP/hospial help on that or other occasions?

It is commonplace to use abuse as a way of getting you out of the property and also as a way of getting legal aid to finance court action. Its all very well you saying you let her rant and you keep quiet, but as you will no doubt have read on here, women have been known to say and do to get their own way.

The Courts do consider that contact every other week is a good arrangement, you both have quality time with the children, what with work commitments, school etc I know the youngest isn't yet at school. However, you could also ask for contact in the week that you are not having overnight contact, i.e. for tea or something, and longer in school holidays

I don't want to take any action against her but apparently it is common place for false allegations to be made against a husband as a means of getting someone to leave the property.

I have personal experience of just that scenario. Although no violence was alleged, I was falsely accused of emotional abuse (the irony being that my stbx was, and is, extremely passive aggressive and her behaviour absolutely counts as emotional abuse.

My stbx proceeded to make an application for an injunction to force me out of the house. Under my barrister's advice, I had to concede and leave. I also had to fight through the courts for every second I get with my two girls.

If she has physically assaulted you, report it to the police immediately. You need it on record as soon as possible because, in my experience, if a mother is being unreasonable about residence/contact from the outset they are not going to change and may use underhand methods to try and get what they want - no matter the emotional and financial cost. :boohoo:

Hi

Assault has been reported to police but I have requested they take no action against her. Hopefully it will help if she later makes false allegations....

The Wikivorce lawyer's view was that the kids have different needs given they are 4.5 yrs apart. We will be pretty local to each other so can manage schools etc.

I can understand the issues with my young son and currently think alternate weeks with older child (with contact other week) and maybe 3 days, 2 days back with mum and then 2 days back with me until he is older might be a good compromise. Again weekday contact the following week.

I really cannot cope with idea of every other weekend and just limited weekday contact and I know my older child would hate seeing so little of her father.

Work wise I can cope with this arrangement.

Views please? Would a court support such an approach or does mother's view always win?

Reporting it to the police is the best action. If needed, reports can be obtained later. However if she assaults you again, I would not hesitate to report it.

I do however think that if your ex opposed the contact that the court will take the soft option, and go for the usual every other weekend and perhaps a contact in the alternate week.

If your ex is suggesting the current level of contact with it being reviewed in 12 months, then you could try to agree the current level, plus an increased level in 12 months, and get the whole thing written into an agreement now - that makes it much harder for her to change her mind in 12 months, and if she does, then you can use the agreement as the basis of a contact order then.

I spoke with her again with the hope she would improve her "offer" of access. She declined.

I also asked her again if she would consider a family coach who could act as a mediator and put the needs of the children first - she declined.

She is making the atmosphere in the house quite poisonous - and the kids are picking up on the tension. She wants me out and says that I am the one impacting the kids and I am selfish not to leave, I am of the opinion that going will just make things worse for the kids if there isn't a sensible agreement in place before I leave.

I took my daughter to school this morning and she made a comment that it is Mummy that is making her sad.....

I can't see any option other than going to court as I doubt if I will get any less access via that route and hopefully significantly more if I can make a decent case and have an enlightened judge... even better if she wants to agree something before we get to court which we can all work with.

I am sorry to hear of this, it sounds like the outcome is not going to be pleasant unless a dramatic change occurs.

Do not leave the house otherwise your position will be significantly weakened.

Formalise everything - apply for a mediation date. It will be upto her to attend or not. The courts will need a mediation form signed prior to any hearings.

Good luck.

Having threatened court she has now agreed to shuttle mediation. I am guessing that her lawyer said she had to try some sort of mediation or the court would look unfavourably upon her.

I am still keen to get a shared arrangement. She has said to date that she doesn't believe in midweek overnights as "they don't work" even though we have friends that do make it work well. She is relying on feedback from one person she knows for whom it didn't work....

It would be helpful to have feedback from anyone with experience of midweek overnights. Does it confuse children or do they get used to the arrangements? The children are 6 and almost 2. We will live very near each other so schools and nurseries will not be an issue and I can adjust my work hours as needed.

I feel that quality time with their father is important and 7days per fortnight or maybe 5 would be very workable and beneficial. I want to be involved in school runs, homework etc.

If you have any advice on arguments which can be used to support such an arrangement and also any pitfalls that you think I should be aware of then I would be grateful.

Hi Divorcing Dad,

I cant see why a midweek overnight is an issue or would not work.

This talk of confusing the children is rubbish in my opinion. Children need routine and security of knowing what is happening regardless of the day of the week.

The current arrangement set out by the court in my case is that our children have access to me every other weekend and every Wednesday. I drop them off at school the next day. (Children are 6 and 3)

I fail to see how it is not confusing for your children to go from seeing theyre Dad every day to whatever meagre amount of time is offered

My question to your ex would be; why would it be confusing to the children? The only answers that seem to spring to mind are that she is either after money or control or both.

If she can offer any reasons do what you can to mitigate those in mediation, yours is not an unreasonable request in my opinion.

Regards,

Dave

Dave

She is certainly after control and probably money too.

She gets very upset ( maybe jealous?) when my daughter comes to me when she has had a nightmare or is feeling unwell. Last night my daughter, who is suffering with a cold, sore throat and temperature came into my room at 5am. I was just checking temp and about to give Calpol when she came running in and made our daughter go to her room for medication, I wasn't happy about this but not wanting an argument in front of my daughter I let them go into her room. She feels she is the only one capable of caring for a sick child as she is "her" daughter!

Hi Divorcing Dad,

Keep your diary of these events and if she is saying "her daughter" document that so its brought up at a later date.

I dont think parential alienation is particulary picked up on but where there is evidence of it record it.

I included references to my alienation in my witness statement.

Good luck and keep the faith.

Regards,

Dave

It is a while since I last posted and she is becoming less and less reasonable. Some advice on next steps would be helpful.

We are still living in the same property (separate rooms) and this at least gives me good contact with the kids who love having their dad around. Indeed the 6 year old in particular will turn to me if she is upset or has nightmares. My wife is deliberately shouting at me and causing issues, in front of the children, and seeks every opportunity to criticise me. For example yesterday I was doing breakfast for them at 8:30am (Sunday) but she felt I should have fed them at 7:30am as she said they were hungry. However this morning she was feeding the 6 yr old at 8:30am and that was fine! Go figure!

I managed to get her to go to a mediation session and we have another tomorrow. I am still seeking a significant amount of custody (although I would like 50/50 I would agree to a Fri-Monday every other weekend and a midweek overnight making 5 nights from 14.) She is refusing any midweek overnights ("they just don't work" is her only perspective) and she just wants me to have them Fri and Sat night once a fortnight. Even the mediator made it clear that she was being unfair but there was no moving her.

She keeps threatening to get an occupation order and a non-mol but hasn't really got any grounds although I guess she is busy inventing some. She has stopped working citing anxiety (but she is happy to go on on dates!)

I find it very difficult trying to explain to my 6 year old what is going on. "Why does mummy keep shouting at you? Will she be cross that we are late home? etc..."

When wife is not around my kids and I have a great time either in the house or out. So the real issue is her presence and her disruption/criticism when I am with them but I have been advised not to move out until we have an agreement on childcare.

I think the real issue from her side is that the kids love being with me and she gets jealous which is why she wants me out. As a dad I am quickly picking up all the skills needed for looking after two kids (which are different as there is a 6 yr old and one that is very nearly two) but clearly I am not perfect - would anybody expect me to be? So her current plan of attack is trying to prove that I can't safely look after them (which is rubbish) and that my presence in the house is making her anxious/ill. I am sure that this is how she will try and spin things... what can I do/say to correct any misleading, inaccurate or downright lies she propagates?

Oh and I forgot t mention that her financial demand pending any settlement is that I pay for everything and leaves me with less than nothing each month and having to fund her lifestyle on my credit cards.

I am feeling very hacked off by the whole situation....

Hi There,

Keep a cool head and a record of her behaviour and consider that you take out a non molestation or occupation order and have her leave the house without the children as it is emotionaly affecting them.

She appears to be seeking grounds to do it to you.

Have you sought legal advice?

Oh and a regret of mine was I never recorded conversations or set up cctv in the house as it would have shown my ex was clearly nuts.

Regards,

Dave

Start thinking about court proceedings and what you will require to be successful.

Start preparing, if not required then at least you were ready.

Regards,

Dave

Dave

Good advice. I have recorded some conversations but wasn't recording on Sunday morning when she went crazy again as I thought she was back on a reasonable approach- how wrong I was.

My concern about me taking a non-mol or occupation order is that it might backfire and the court require me to leave and her staying with the kids. Is that a risk?

Im not sure if a non mol may backfire if I am honest, maybe others have experience of this.

My logic is equal rights, whats good for the gander should be good for the goose, in terms of she would march you out the door if she could.

Mmm....Wait and see what other advice is offered here but I would be thinking about building a case and collecting evidence from here on in.

Regards,

Dave

To be honest, I would think that you are the one able to get a Non Mol because of her violence against you! All the shouting her behaviour etc gives you rights too. You could have her leave the house, but you keep the children.

Since I last posted a lot has changed - mostly for the better - but I would like some advice/support relating to CAFCASS. and what I can expect.

Immediately after our second mediation session in August, where she refused to compromise at all, she filed for an Occupation Order. I didn't know that for a week or more and in that time she chose to move out with, no notice, the night before I was due to take the kids away for a planned 3 day break. I managed to get an Ex Parte order to enable me to take them away for just 2 days.

When I received the occupation order her grounds were incredibly weak (causing her anxiety etc) and while I could have fought it my barrister suggested it would look better to the court if I agreed to move. A compromise was reached where I would move out at end of September.

We had a 3 hour court hearing in mid October and my proposal for 5 nights out of 14 ( as opposed to her one night a fortnight) was agreed and I was awarded share residency. This was a great achievement. The court also ordered a full Cafcass report.

The last few weeks have gone well from my perspective and I recent;y met with Cafcass but at that time they had not met my ex. I know they have seen her and also met my 6 yr old at school. I am expecting my ex to make all sorts of false allegations about how I am not looking after them properly. Just as she did previously at court but which the magistrates recognised as false.

So here I am in the hands of Cafcass and very worried, My ex refuses to agree anything about the Christmas period and the current interim order is only until mid December when we have the next (final?) hearing which is only listed for an hour.

Should I be proactive with Cafcass and ask what is going on? Can I ask them to help with Christmas arrangements as I don't want to leave it until the last minute? My kids are already asking me if Santa is coming to my new house. Do you think I am worrying unnecessarily? My ex has told me she is not at all happy with current arrangements and is clearly fighting to overturn them.

Hi DD

It's always difficult to predict what a court is going to rule, but they were happy to give you 5 days out of 14 in the first place, and unless there are safeguarding issues, they would generally have no reason at all to reduce this - don't forget, they are acting in the best interests of your children, and not an ex who doesn't like the arrangements!! Let's face it, if the matter goes to court, there is always going to be at least one parent who is unhappy, so they are used to that.

As for cafcass, if your children are asking if Santa is coming to your new house - what do you think they have been telling cafcass 🙂

Thanks for the support.

This evening she has said she refuses to discuss any arrangements for Christmas until Cafcass have provided their report. Another delaying tactic and I am willing to be that when we have that she will want to wait until we are back in court. So unreasonable and certainly she isn't taking the wishes of the children into consideration.

I doubt CAFCASS will help with Christmas arrangements but you can contact them and ask for an update on the report, and mention that your ex is refusing to negotiate Christmas contact until she has received the report. Just make sure you get another interim in place when you go back to court, which includes defined contact over the Christmas period.