[Solved] My basic contact rights

Hi there and welcome 🙂

You certainly do have rights and in my opinion they are abusing their position, although I see it more as fear that if they allow you more contact they might end up losing him!

Are you and your wife still together and if so does she have any contact with your son?

I think you were made to make a decision at a very vulnerable time in your life....I think it's shocking that you were asked to abandon one or the other of the two most important people in your life. However what's done is done and the issue now is to try and redress the balance and get you and your son more time together.

The first step I feel would be to go to Mediation, the court would expect this to have been attempted before you apply for a Contact Order. You would need to find a Mediation service in your area which can be done on their website www.nfm.org.uk initially you would go along and talk throughout the issues with a Mediator. They would then invite the grandparents to attend to discuss their concerns and once that is done the aim is to get both parties around the table and with the guidance of the Mediator talk everything through and hopefully come to an agreement. There is a charge for this service but if you are on benefits or a low income you will be eligible for Legal Aid. Here's a link to the Legal Aid calculator www.gov.uk/check-legal-aid this will tell you of you can claim.

If Mediation fails then the next step would be to apply to the Court for a defined Contact Order. I feel you stand a good chance of success and you can represent yourself, it's very doable and there are quite a few Dads here that have taken that route, so you will get plenty of advice and support. Legal Aid for Family Law cases was stopped in April so the grandparents will either have to represent themselves too or pay thousands to employ a solicitor.

There are some stickys that you might find useful at the top of the Legal Eagle section here....a couple about representing yourself and one about the C100 form which is the form that you would use to apply for a Contact Order. There is a charge of £200 to submit this application but again if you are on benefits or a low income you can claim an exemption, this would be done on form EX160a.

Best of luck 🙂

Well I too think that Social Services too advantage of you, yes that will be the question they as, they normally do, but not in such a short time frame!!

I agree with NJ I suspect that grandparents are frightened of losing him and that you should approach Mediation. If that does not go ahead go to Court for a Contact Order. I think that after 4 years, you can state that you take your responsibilities extremely seriously! it is not a novelty or big toy! They are grandparents and should be promoting contact.

If Mediation fails unfortunately you will have no option but Court.

As NJ asks, are you still with your wife?

Thank you for responding!

My wife and I are still together; I have spent the last four years looking after her and helping her to get to the point where she is now: My wife and son had their first contact in over 2 years a couple of weeks back, and it went so well! It felt like all the hard work has paid off.

Even better, despite it being early days, she is fighting my corner. Hopefully this will help long term.

I'll investigate the Mediation route, as I have discussed these things so many times with the in-laws but to no avail. They just can't seem to put themselves in my position (ask any parent how they would feel if such restrictions were placed on their relationship with their child, and I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't be able to accept such a scenario!).

Do you know of any support lines where people in my position (I really hope I'm not the only one, I already feel isolated enough!!) can have a chat about things? I don't mind the Samaritans, but they aren't really trained in family matters, and being asked if I'm suicidal only brings those urges to the foreground.

Thanks again,

A (very) loving dad.

As your wife's contact has only just re-started, it is too early for you to progress contact where she is concerned. Her side of contact needs to progress slowly, unfortunately she will need to prove herself insofar as health is concerned.

However, as far as you are concerned you would be entitled to ask for more contact, and I would too, and definitely investigate mediation.

As far as your final paragraph is concerned have you thought about counselling. they would be there specifically for you to talk to about all sorts of things and they would support you and point you in other directions too. I am not sure whether MIND might be a good place to go..no they do not just deal with serious medical mental health conditions, they also help with the less serious too 🙂 (If I can put it that way!)

Hi there 🙂

I think it's to your credit that you have stood by and supported your wife, what a caring man you are. I suggested you have more strength than you realise.

I think trying Mediation is a good first step, it would give you all the opportunity to talk about your concerns. Perhaps once you have had a chance to reassure them that they will always play a big part in your sons life and that you aren't trying to take him away from them they might mellow....it's worth a try.

Having checked around I have found a couple of websites that offer helplines . Heres the links -

www.familylives.org.uk

www.thecalmzone.net

I hope you find these helpful 🙂

Thanks for all your input, much appreciated!

Just an update really. Things have gone from strength to strength with my wife. Her and my son are getting on famously, and are now seeing each other twice a week. 🙂

However, it seems the in-laws, despite a supposed "moving-forward" moment, are still only concerned about their interests, and not mine. They took my son off to Cumbria for three days last week, without even letting me know.

Their response was that they didn't feel they had to, and that if they had I would have got upset about not being able to take him on holiday.

My main issue was the whole mess they made around the last time I tried to have my son stay overnight; their response was to threaten Social Service involvement, which in light of how this all started was pretty evil to say the least. Since, their angle is that my son is too young to be staying overnight at other people's houses, but it's fine for them!

I'm just so tired of their hypocrisy, and want to basically nail them to the wall.

I cannot see that they would even accept mediation, and as such am reluctant to even bother trying.

Would it be in my favour if they refused to cooperate with a mediation service should a contact order be presented to the court?

If it would be, then maybe it would be worth forking out for the first session in order to improve my chances.

Also, does anyone have experience of McKenzie Friends?

Thanks again,

🙂

Hello mate

So sorry to hear this. I have a situation with my son and am not allowed any contact and not even parental responsibility by the courts as my son does not have a relationship with me as he has only just found out about me, since mother hid him from me for ten years until she wanted child maintenance.

Anyhow, some how i am the bad one !

I have come to the conclusions, just because you are in right does not mean every one can see it.

Pull back for a minute and think what are the main issues, then file a relevant court order after the mediation to further prove to the courts you have done all you can for your child and to be involved.

Things will be fine, try all angles and do not give up. 🙂

All the best, and do not get under it, get over it, and move on to the next bit until your there. 🙂

Another update!

I've decided to go for an annulment/amendment of the residence order.

I could really do with some support on this; I'm using all the resentment and anger at the way I have been treated over the last four years to see myself through this process.

I am assuming that because it is my wife and I challenging the order, that we do not drink, drugs or abuse issues and that we are still married and living together that we will stand a good chance of getting our son back. Adding to that the fact the in-laws have restricted my access, have not involved us in his education or religious upbringing, and have had no reasonable cause for doing so, and that they are both over 60 and have allowed my son to call my mother-in-law "Mum" (which is as far as I am concerned deceiving, incorrect and manipulative on their part).

Also, is there a way of spreading legal costs? My wife has just lost her job, and while I have enough to support us both, the headache of legal costs may well mean that my wife and I would not be fairly represented.

I may also add that on the bringing up of the idea by my wife to my in-laws regarding having him back, she was promptly told they would sell their field to cover their legal costs, so I think I can rule out mediation on this one?

Thanks for all your suggestions so far, really looking forward to nailing this one.

A loving (and rather stoked-up) dad!

Hi there,

You know I'm really in two minds about your situation...half of me says its too early to go for residency because your son and your wife are still in the early days of establishing their relationship. The other half of me says go for it because the break from the grandparents would be better sooner rather than later and they are not getting any younger. The fact that they are becoming more difficult with contact and don't respect your position in your sons life is concerning.....but it's not cut and dried.

I don't think there's any way of spreading the legal costs...and they could reach into the thousands, you could take out a loan and then pay it off over a period of time or you could self represent and use a McKenzie Friend to keep the costs down.

Because of the history with your wife you can expect to be scrutinised extensively by Social Services as they will become involved in the case once the judge asks for reports, and you know that this will be a big part of the grandparents argument. You are both going to have to be strong going forward.

As far as mediation is concerned, legal aid is still available and it might be worth checking to see if you qualify. Here's a link to the legal aid calculator www.gov.uk/check-legal-aid .....it would be worth trying to talk around the table and if it fails then you would be given a form FM1 for the court to show them that mediation has been attempted.

If you decide to go down the self repping route we can give you lots of advice and support here. Have a look at the stickys at the top of this section about self representing and the C100 form which is the form you would use to apply for residency.

2POI, just to answer your question about McKenzie's friends, NannyJane is, I suspect, being rather modest in not mentioning this more - she has just trained to be an MF, so is very well placed to give advice on this 🙂

Thanks actd!

NJ, I understand your concerns (mainly because I've had them too).

I'm kind of spurred on by the idea that, assuming we can prove that my wife is now well and capable, (psychiatrist report, or something like that), the court would rather see our son with his real parents as opposed to Grandparents, as it maintains a *traditional* family unit, which I should imagine is easier for the child to accept long-term. (Also means the poor sod doesn't have to keep explaining his situation to everyone he meets at school - I know from my own experience it gets pretty wearing at work!!)

It would be lovely to reassure them that they have a place in his life, but to be honest, if they try to drag our names through the mud in court to keep him, I'm pretty sure I'd never want to see them again. I don't really want to interface with them now to be honest, but only tolerate them for my son's sake. They've just done too much damage already by behaving as they have been.

Would the court look upon my wife using her condition 4 years ago, or would they try and see her as she is now? That's my main concern. I know I can hold my own, but obviously the court needs to be convinced that she can do the same.

Thanks again for the responses so far, I've got a free half hour with a family law solicitor next Tuesday to find out what we need to do in order to secure the best chances of success. Wish me luck!

🙂

It's a good idea to get the solicitors perspective.

One thing that you might like to consider is softening your attitude to the Grandparents, as hard as that will be. The court is only interested in your sons best interests and he has a close bond with them and there is reciprocal love. If you took the stance that you are doing here the court may see that as you not being able to put your sons best interests before your own. You don't need to make them your best friends but it would be better to tone down your rhetoric.

I think the grandparents will try and use your wife's medical history against her and its so difficult to judge how much this will impact on the judge....they differ so much! Your wife's recovery and her flourishing bond with your son is favourable and it would be hoped that the court would see your wife as she is now. They may ask for psychological reports and may want to see her medical records. It might be a good idea to preempt this and get a letter from her GP/Specialist stating the current position etc.

I wish you both the best of luck for sure!

I agree with you NJ.

Sorry about that, just felt really angry about things have ended up this morning and it kind of came out here.

I wouldn't use that kind of rhetoric in the court room, and would try to present as positive a picture as possible.

Hopefully we can get some kind of nod from the GP, (who's leaving at the end of this month, which will be a real shame as he's great with my wife in terms of being tactful and supportive). Failing that, yeah, a private psychiatrist would be our next step (no way on God's green earth would we go through CMHT; sodding useless!).

I'll try to soften my attitude towards them, but when you've been treated so badly for so long, it's hard. Maybe rohypnol would help? (for me, not them...)

Thanks 🙂

😆 ....Isn't that the date rape drug!

There's no need to apologise, a good rant does us good! You've had lots on your plate and you can always come here and offload if it helps!

I take it your wife is no longer involved with the CMHT, if she has had past involvement then they may be asked for a report by the judge. If you decide to go for an assessment privately try and make sure that the expert you choose has done plenty of court work and is an acknowledged expert. The judge might ask for a court ordered assessment so it might be an idea not to rush into anything.

Let them be the ones to behave badly in court, rise above it and be the bigger person... It will be far more effective.

Hi NJ,

Sorry it's been a while. Thanks for your reply.

I have since been able to secure a free 45 mins with a family law solicitor and it was great. We're in for a rough ride ahead, but she said after evaluating our situation that it would be better to go straight for a residency order. This is because he is not getting any younger, and the longer we leave it, the harder it's going to be to justify "rocking the boat".

The judge will indeed look at how we are now, as opposed to how things were in the past, so that's a positive thing.

I really need some support at the moment as the in-laws have been particularly bad. I think they are showing their true colours in regards to our son. My wife has highlighted her confidence in being a good mother to our son going forward, and her mum's response was "The job's not vacant". First, how [censored] heartless can you be? Secondly, how much does that sound like they are in it for themselves?

They also still defend to the hilt their allowing our son to call her "Mummy", after my wife's initial request to be be referred to by her real name. This was because she was still too scarred by her experiences to be called anything else, but still, having him call my in-law "Mummy" was not something I ever said was ok, or have accepted. I believe the family unit should be well-defined, transparent and correct.

I guess this may work in our favour, as being at home with Mum and Dad would be a [censored] of a lot better in the long run than living with Mummy and Grandpa?! But it also highlights, along with how restrictive they have been in terms of contact, how they have essentially tried to sabotage any chances of a smooth transition for him to come back to us. I'm pretty sure it has been intended that way all along.

Any support, encouragement and advice would be so appreciated at the moment, as this is currently hitting us very hard.

Thanks!

support, encouragement and advice comes for free here. 🙂

Regards,

Dave

Hi there,

Great to hear from you...and the session with the solicitor sounded constructive. You will get there... Nobody's pretending its going to be easy but you and your wife will be prepared for that, and if you have been able to get through all of the stuff that you have then you are more than capable of seeing this through too. You and your wife have dealt with things that would have torn most couples apart so take strength from that and from each other, as I'm sure that you do.

The grandparents are reacting and I'm sure that their worsening behaviour is because they feel that they are losing ground... Their attitude is understandable because they probably realise that they are fighting the inevitable. However they have allowed reality to get blurred and are not being completely honest with your son or themselves.

I would like you to try and step back and not get too bound up with all of the anger and frustration that your situation is creating, you will get much better results by staying objective and keeping your emotions in check. Calm and reasonable must be your mantra....once the court process has begun it will be so important to show that you are a measured and thoughtful person who's only goal is to do what is best for your son. The more you behave in this way the more the grandparents will feel threatened and the more likely they are to show their true colours....calm and reasonable will steer you through.

We will be with you and your wife every step of the way... as little or as much as you need, you only have to ask. I'm going to give you a link to a webpage where you can access Families Need Fathers branch meetings in your local area... You will find these meetings a useful resource both legally and emotionally and both you and your wife will be welcome. I have recommended these meetings to others here and they have found them so useful...

www.fnf.org.uk/help-and-support/local-branch-meetings

You know, whether you believe it or not your confidence has grown since you first came here and soon I know you will feel ready to take the next step.

Hi NJ.

Really distraught. Just got this from the in laws:

[removed]

Is this legitimate?

Really not happy at all, but pretty sure this cannot be enforced.

Help!

Hi,

Am I remembering correctly that this is your wifes parents refering to theyre daughter as "your wife"?

Regards,

Dave

It's me changing names to protect the innocent.

I'm sorry this has happened... If you don't mind me asking, what happened on Saturday evening? If you don't wish to discuss this on open forum but would like to talk about it you can PM me.

As they have a residence order they can, if there are safeguarding issues, withhold contact and this is what they are angling for....as you said, their behaviour has been getting worse, they know that you want more contact and custody and this is them trying to prevent you from doing so.

You have a contact order and they cannot just suspend contact without good reason, By doing so they are in breach, I suggest you have two options here, you can go for enforcement or take that step and put in for an emergency residence order.

I take it that the solicitor you had advice from is the same one that they have also taken advice from?

You could write a letter to them reminding them that they are in serious breach of the contact order, that they have for some time refused any increase in contact contrary to the courts wishes. Suggest that you consider this to be a tactic to prevent you from progressing your relationship with your son and that this is not in his best interests. However this might lead them to preempt any court application you may make by applying to vary the contact order.

...I think they must be exaggerating, I can't see a solicitor recommending complete and permanent suspension of contact because of a telephone call.