Ok and what were the allegations they found against you on? Assume DV related?
coercive control and harrassment.
coercive control and harrassment.
continued
Allegation 2
This allegation concerns threats to remove the children from Ms XXXXXX care and occasions when the children were not returned on time. In addition to the evidence provided in writing we also heard Ms XXXXXXX oral evidence about an incident at XXXX school in December 2020, after the period mentioned in the Schedule of Allegations.
In cross-examination, Mr XXXX accepted that he had not brought the children back on time on at least two occasions – the trip to Alton Towers and the time when there had to be an A&E visit. In isolation, and out of context, these occasions might not seem to be of any great significance, but what is
concerning is the way Mr XXXXX handled the situation. In essence, he was determined to handle matters in the way that he wanted despite what the children’s mother said. On the occasion of the A&E visit, Mr XXXXXX decided that he would ignore Ms XXXXX request that he take XXXXX before the party that day and also her suggestion that she herself would take XXXXXX the next day. The effect of this, on this occasion and on others, was that Ms XXXXX never knew when the children would be returned. There can be no doubt that Mr XXXXX was aware of this effect, given Ms XXXXX previous reactions.
As for the December 2020 incident, Mr XXXXXX account was that he only went to school on that day as agreed at court. He did not deny trying to take the children and in cross-examination initially said he had been right to do as he had. He accepted there might have been an impact on the children, but said it was a lesser impact than that of not seeing him for a month and a half. In our view this demonstrates a lack of insight into the impact that his actions are likely to have on his children.
We also heard evidence relating to the incident in February 2020, when Mr XXXX attended Ms XXXXXXX address despite the Prohibited Steps Order (PSO) being in place. It is helpful that we have independent evidence that bears on this – firstly the evidence of the process server and the police record of what they were told at the time. Firstly, we are satisfied that Mr XXXXXX had been properly served and that he knew what the PSO said. The process server had no reason to make a false statement and Mr XXXXXX credibility is not helped by his assertion that it was completely untrue. Secondly, however, whilst it is clear that Mr XXXXXX did attend the address, and should not have done so given the existence of the PSO of which he knew, we cannot be satisfied that the course of events followed precisely that stated by Ms XXXXXX and her sister given that this is not what the police were told at the time.
We also see the incident referenced in allegation 3 as relevant to this allegation, in that it seems clear that Mr XXXXX picked up XXXXX when Ms XXXXX did not agree that she was to be part of the contact that day, and then refused to hand her back.
Allegation 3
There is little dispute about what actually happened on this occasion; both parties’ accounts are similar, as they were at the time. Mr XXXX arrived for the agreed weekly contact with the two older children and picked up XXXX. Ms XXXXX did not want her to go and tried to get her back. Mr XXXX demonstrated how he had shaken her off him, which constituted the push. It is clear however that this was a reaction to Ms XXXXX attempt to take XXXXXX from him, and assessing its implications must take account of the wider context.
More broadly, we are of the view that our findings indicate the following points that are likely to be of relevance to the welfare decisions that will be necessary in due course:
- Mr XXXXX has interpreted situations in ways that suit him – for instance by believing that the court had made orders that it had not, or by declining to accept that he had been served with the PSO because he did not believe that he could be served by text. He now says that he understands points that he did not understand before, but it will be necessary for it to be very clearly spelled put to him what he can and cannot do.
- Mr XXXXXX has persisted in making contact with relevant people – for instance, Ms XXXXX or her solicitors – if he did not get the results that he wants – “escalating”, to use his term. He either lacked insight into the impact of such actions on the recipients or was aware of it and intended it; at this stage we cannot be clear which, though in many cases the impacts were clearly foreseeable. In our view such behaviour can properly be characterised as coercive and controlling because it uses the threat of repeated contact as a lever to achieve his objectives.
- Mr XXXXXX has been focussed on his interpretation of the children’s rights, which centres on the time they have with him. In pursuit of, as he sees it, enforcing those rights, he has taken steps which have adverse impacts on the children and their mother, for example attending the home after the service of the PSO or attending the school in December to try and take XXXXX to football. He lacked insight into the effect of his actions.
Ok, these findings will also be used for CAO as the allegations will be the same. Therefore yes they will impact your CAO application and so will the fact that you have a NMO in place.
Having a NMO in place means that the usual steps to facilitate child contact are no longer possible (unless you have 3rd parties to facilitate) eg communicating with the mother to arrange contact and about the welfare of the children etc and your ex will not be asked/made/ordered to engage with you to facilitate child contact (you are considered a risk to her and the kids).
You have a few options..
You can challenge the NMO, this can take longer and whilst you are doing this it might be best to not proceed with CAO and in the meantime focus on video calls and building a relationship via this method.
To accept the NMO and move to focusing on CAO. However, you need to take into consideration that as the court has now found against you in relation to domestic violence then before you can get any direct contact with your children you will probably be required to complete a Domestic Violence programme to safeguard your children and to a degree your ex partner. These take around 6 months to complete (possibly longer due to Covid) and once half way through an interim report is produced and if you are engaging well then you may be allowed contact to progress at a contact centre until you finish the programme.
However, in order to be accepted onto the programme you have to accept the allegations and findings against you as you will be required on the programme to talk about and discuss your behaviour and the things you've done and what you could have done differently and what you would do differently in future. If you cannot and will not accept the findings then this option will not be open to you and the courts will consider you to be in denial and therefore a risk to your ex and children.
Or you can accept the NMO, not proceed with CAO, focus on video calls and see if contact with the children naturally progresses and your ex slowly over a period of time comes round to allowing contact to increase as your kids request it. There are no guarantees here and it's a long process.
I'm not legally qualified so you may want to take your own legal advice. My response is based on my own experience, knowledge and the legal advice I was given.
All the best.
Hi
My response was prior to reading your NMO. It's complex and not clear cut and legal advice is definitely needed.
My advice and options still stand and the references in the NMO re lack of insight will more than likely mean that you will be required to complete a Domestic Violence programme unfortunately.
Can I also suggest that you delete the NMO you have attached or ask a moderator to do so as the details are sufficient to allow your ex and children to be identified.
I wouldn't mind keeping the NMO up their just so everyone else has an idea of what courts will be using against innocent dad's out there.
DV appears to be towards the mother which I am appealing already.
Mother is allowing me to take the children football from next month.
She removed access because of lock down and was selective in government guidelines
I think you still got a chance to avoid the domestic violence programme.
There is hope for you reading through it all. Firstly i would accept the NMO and the findings , but i think its how you proceed moving forward. Its all going to be down to how Cafcass interview goes.
For example i read up until 2019 you could have children whenever you wished and then suddenly you couldnt. You found this hard to adapt to , but now however you do moving forward understand that children need routine and stability . set times and days.
You have had time to reflect things and will now do everything the legal way in future if mediation is not workable. i.E you werent fully aware how everything worked and looking back now it wasnt the way to do things. And you now know to not do things the same way. Probably the one where you phoned 40 times allegedly , this is easy to do out of frustration.
I didnt see anything in reports that suggested you are violent or a danger ,but you do need to mention that you and mum should co parent and build up contact.
It is very important actually if mum does let you take children to football as they will be training and hopefully playing matches soon and gives you a small opportunity to build contact up quicker. With nmo or psco in place make sure you stick to it as does look like courts didnt completely make their mind up if you were either frustrated or cause anxiety and stress on purpose ie the solicitors firm for example.
You could offer to do SPIP course in that it might help both you and mum to see how children get affected when 2 parents dont get on ..It seems to me like most of your actions are done out of frustration which may see everything turn out ok for you albeit contact will be done in a phased way.
Dont run mum down and you be there sooner than you think , she has already offered u to take them to football for example
Don't think just because DV is towards mother it won't impact access to the kids. It most definitely will. As you have been found to be controlling and coercive you are considered a risk eg you could use the kids to exert control (the courts will order a DV programme to help you understand this and avoid post separation abuse including towards the kids) . However what your ex now does will also be key and so if she allows you to see the kids then jump at it but make sure that you stick to the order including the spirit of it. It has been known for exs to manipulate situations to get you to breach and then push for your arrest.
Eg she allows you to take them to football. However doesn't like something you said to kids and speak to you aggressively about it on their return. You retaliate by shouting back and she reports you to the police for harassment and breach of order and denies speaking to you aggressively.. You can see how that would pan out.
Ps it is unusual for a mother to allow direct access after going to all that trouble to obtaining a NMO and before a CAO hearing.
These are just my thoughts.
As I've suggested, take some legal advice even if the free 30 mins just for clarity...
Good advice from Warwickshire...
Let us know how you get on..
I will be going ahead and appealing it, the calls for example were not made by me and the judge has used probability rather then evidence. The mother had kicked of the this whole court case based on a scar around my daughters neck which she had either inflicted or drew on her neck and has blamed it all on me. She had changed her story several times about this but yet the court has taken her side. If she can make up a story like that and the court can believe it, then I'm pretty sure any mother can make any false allegations and the will just agree with it.
I cannot accept the DV course as I'm in no way a danger, but your right about being frustrated and now there is a stable court order for contact which the judge ordered and should of ordered from the beginning . I can't see myself getting frustrated unless the mother stops contact
Solicitors are a pain to work with, takes around 2 weeks to get an answer Co - pa renting again is difficult and she only waits till court have agreed and doesn't want to get involved in between.
Im also worried about what tactics and false allegations she will come up with if speaking directly to her. I'd rather avoid and will make that a statement that co-parenting is not possible with her, It will be another trap for another court case.
It's been all bout her her and her and nothing about children entitlement about seeing their father.
I would not appeal it. It can be based on probability as well as evidence . so the lay magistrates thinking it is more likely to have happened than not ( 51%). accept it follow it to letter of law and everything will work out fine. You got a section 7 and if you start fighting the NMO it will just make matters worse when it comes to seeing your children. At moment cafcass probably give you benefit of doubt that it was mainly done out of frustration . By appealing it you could end up in a worse situation. Your in court may/june so 3 months would of passed by then anyway. How long is it in place for 18 months maybe less?
If you arent seeing kids at moment then it likely to be supervised, but mum has already offered you at end of march where oldest one returns to football. Put the NMO to the back of your mind and look forward to seeing your oldest one at football and who knows you may be offered some other contact before may/june as well. Being patient and seeing this family court proceeding to the end ,being calm and not reacting will get you best results.
One final thing solicitors are a pain and its common for them to ignore you for 2 weeks or not reply at all . This includes your own solicitor and your ex solicitor. They can send you nasty emails so dont react to them. Make this NMO all about that whatever happened was out of frustration temporarily and u will be fine.